Carl ….What I ment from the Redfoot statement ( which is even less studied then the galaps, and there is no island hoping with miles of water in-between) is at what point or shall I say “local†to we call one species another?
JD, that is a commonly asked question regarding virtually every sub-species of every organism. Let's apply that question to American box turtles: Eastern box turtles intergrade with Florida box turtles around Jacksonville, Florida but once you travel a bit further north eastern box turtles are clearly identifiable. Around Thomasville, Georgia you find box turtles that appear to be a mix of gulf coast box turtles, Florida box turtles and even three-toed box turtles. However these zones of intergradation are actually very small. But the point is that an eastern box turtle from Massachusetts is clearly a different creature from a gulf coast box turtle from the Florida panhandle. The difference isn't just color either. Size, shell shape and even head size are different. Would you say they are all just the 'same animal'?
Yet your argument regarding redfoots--that they have been subject to man made interference through trade, travel and habitat change applies equally to box turtles. Native Americans likely moved the occasional box turtle from one zone to another. But we still can identify the races, or 'locales' or sub-species (or whatever you want to call them) easily. Sure there are oddballs found in every population, but in general you can tell and eastern box turtle from the other races.
You also mentioned this:
I fully understand there are phenotypes’ to certain “local†and in the redfoot world most of that is differences in coloring.
This is absolutely false. In red-footed tortoises the differences in the various races we see in captivity are far greater than just color. Look deeper than just color. The northern races often (usually) posses a narrow 'wasp waist' in adult males and many females too. Northerns have fragmented head scales with short prefrontal scutes. The scales on the legs of northern red foots, especially animals from Guyana/Suriname, are smooth and more numerous than the larger and more imbricate leg scales of the cherry-head form. Speaking of the leg scales on cherry-heads, there is usually fewer colored scales on each leg than the northern and Chaco races of red-foots. The cherry-heads do not develop a pinched waist as the northern do but the males of this race often develop a flared rear margin to the carapace. The heads of cherry-heads possess two (or four) elongated prefrontal scutes that are clearly identifiable. Sometimes they are divided by an 'X' like suture. The nasal region of cherry-heads is typically bulbous and is different from the other races we see in captivity. BTW, the nasal region of Colombian red-foots seems to be very rounded and blunt. Cherry-heads in general are much, much smaller than the red-foots from Mato Grasso, Paraguay, Bolivia and Suriname/Guyana.
There are other differences too and I haven't even touched on the very different plastron pattern and color of the various races. My point is that there is clearly enough differences in these races to warrant sub-specific rank. They just have not been officially described by taxonomists. Yet.
The gripe I have with so many keepers of red-foots (and this would apply to Galapagos animals too) is that when it suits them they turn a blind eye to these unique traits and pretend they don't exist.
As for your hypos, I find them to be very interesting. I have no beef with them at all other than I don't find any adult hypo to be that pretty. But many of your neonates are beautiful for sure. Do I think they are 'pure' or comprised on a single race? Heck no. They appear to me to be hybrids, or whatever you would want to call them. They sure aren't pure cherry-heads. But as long as you don't try and pass them off as anything else, who cares? I don't.
JD, that is a commonly asked question regarding virtually every sub-species of every organism. Let's apply that question to American box turtles: Eastern box turtles intergrade with Florida box turtles around Jacksonville, Florida but once you travel a bit further north eastern box turtles are clearly identifiable. Around Thomasville, Georgia you find box turtles that appear to be a mix of gulf coast box turtles, Florida box turtles and even three-toed box turtles. However these zones of intergradation are actually very small. But the point is that an eastern box turtle from Massachusetts is clearly a different creature from a gulf coast box turtle from the Florida panhandle. The difference isn't just color either. Size, shell shape and even head size are different. Would you say they are all just the 'same animal'?
Yet your argument regarding redfoots--that they have been subject to man made interference through trade, travel and habitat change applies equally to box turtles. Native Americans likely moved the occasional box turtle from one zone to another. But we still can identify the races, or 'locales' or sub-species (or whatever you want to call them) easily. Sure there are oddballs found in every population, but in general you can tell and eastern box turtle from the other races.
You also mentioned this:
I fully understand there are phenotypes’ to certain “local†and in the redfoot world most of that is differences in coloring.
This is absolutely false. In red-footed tortoises the differences in the various races we see in captivity are far greater than just color. Look deeper than just color. The northern races often (usually) posses a narrow 'wasp waist' in adult males and many females too. Northerns have fragmented head scales with short prefrontal scutes. The scales on the legs of northern red foots, especially animals from Guyana/Suriname, are smooth and more numerous than the larger and more imbricate leg scales of the cherry-head form. Speaking of the leg scales on cherry-heads, there is usually fewer colored scales on each leg than the northern and Chaco races of red-foots. The cherry-heads do not develop a pinched waist as the northern do but the males of this race often develop a flared rear margin to the carapace. The heads of cherry-heads possess two (or four) elongated prefrontal scutes that are clearly identifiable. Sometimes they are divided by an 'X' like suture. The nasal region of cherry-heads is typically bulbous and is different from the other races we see in captivity. BTW, the nasal region of Colombian red-foots seems to be very rounded and blunt. Cherry-heads in general are much, much smaller than the red-foots from Mato Grasso, Paraguay, Bolivia and Suriname/Guyana.
There are other differences too and I haven't even touched on the very different plastron pattern and color of the various races. My point is that there is clearly enough differences in these races to warrant sub-specific rank. They just have not been officially described by taxonomists. Yet.
The gripe I have with so many keepers of red-foots (and this would apply to Galapagos animals too) is that when it suits them they turn a blind eye to these unique traits and pretend they don't exist.
As for your hypos, I find them to be very interesting. I have no beef with them at all other than I don't find any adult hypo to be that pretty. But many of your neonates are beautiful for sure. Do I think they are 'pure' or comprised on a single race? Heck no. They appear to me to be hybrids, or whatever you would want to call them. They sure aren't pure cherry-heads. But as long as you don't try and pass them off as anything else, who cares? I don't.
