Do baby leopard tortoises need humidity?

[kyle42leopards]

I was just wondering if baby leopards needed humidity? I own 2 babies, one is almost a year and the other i just got a week ago is 5 months old.

Most care sheets say that leopards can't tolerate humidity so ive always kept mine in an almost bone dry enviroment with soaks every 2 days.
But now iam reading in some places that baby leos do need humidity. Who should i believe?

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi Kyle:

to the forum!!

Yes, they most certainly do!!!

I kept the first baby leopard that I hatched, selling all the others. That baby is now about 4 or 5 years old and very pyramided.

I kept him on oat hay pellets (similar to rabbit pellets), which you cannot moisten, so very, very dry. His habitat was outside, but in a heated dog-house-type affair, and I could open the lid on sunny days for natural sunlight. He was fed the correct types of food including a lot of weeds and grasses and dark, leafy greens. I soaked him about every other day.

If you are interested in reading more about humidity and the leopard tortoise, I suggest you read Richard Fife's thoughts on this subject (he raises and sells beautiful leopard tortoises):

http://www.ivorytortoise.com/information/documents/pyramiding_in_tortoises.html

 

[terracolson]

Kyle I would get a humidity Gauge and keep them between 40 to 60.. I let it vary but i really like it at 50%

 

[Tom]

What part of the country are you in? If you live in a dry area, you will have to go to great lengths to maintain enough humidity. The more the better, I say. The only time you'll have a health problem with high humidity is if you let them get too cold. Say below 70 in a damp environment.

 

[kyle42leopards]

The problem is that nobody mentions the humidity in their care sheets. Richard fife also failed to mention the need for humidity in his leopard tortoise care sheet. The only care sheets that mention the fact that they need humidity are ones that don't come up when you google leopard tortoise care. Something needs to be done about that so that future leo owners don't make the mistake of placing their torts in a bone dry enclosure.

My blonde leo is around 10 months old and is beautiful although i kept him in a dry enclosure, he seems to have a slight amount of pyramiding but if i add humidity will he turn out mostly smoothe or no? I've done everything else perfecly...just didn't know about the humidity.

 

[terracolson]

The care sheet i have says 40 % when i spoke to her via email about it, she said 40 to 60%....

 

[Tom]

The problem is that nobody mentions the humidity in their care sheets. Richard fife also failed to mention the need for humidity in his leopard tortoise care sheet. The only care sheets that mention the fact that they need humidity are ones that don't come up when you google leopard tortoise care. Something needs to be done about that so that future leo owners don't make the mistake of placing their torts in a bone dry enclosure.

My blonde leo is around 10 months old and is beautiful although i kept him in a dry enclosure, he seems to have a slight amount of pyramiding but if i add humidity will he turn out mostly smoothe or no? I've done everything else perfecly...just didn't know about the humidity.

This is cutting edge new info. It only began to spread around 2007. Most of the care sheets were made before that. Even today we still debate on the details of it. Nothing will ever reverse pyramiding, but you can try to even out the new growth, so that it doesn't get any worse. I have a two year old sulcata that was pretty pyramided at three months when I got her. I've been housing her more and more humid since I got her with little or no reduction in the pyramiding. For the past six months or so I've been keeping her in swampy conditions. Literally. I think I'm finally seeing a slight reduction in the pyramiding. One theory suggests that whatever pyramiding pattern is set for the first 4-6 inches of growth will continue, no matter what you do. Judging from Daisy, that seems to be true. I'm in the process of acquiring another perfectly smooth recent hatchling to test the opposite. The question I have to answer for myself now is: If I raise one exactly the same as I always have, except with high humidity from the get go, will it grow up smooth? Further, If I get it to 6" smooth and then start housing it outdoors, where its very dry here, will it keep growing smooth? I'll be 100% sure of both of these answers in about 2 or 3 years.

For yours, I'd suggest keeping them very warm and humid, AND add a humid hide box for them to simulate a humid burrow like what they'd be in, if they were the wild.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Roachman I don't like to contradict you, but Leopard keepers need to be very careful about adding humidity. They can't just make swampy conditions like you are doing for Daisy. In the Pacific North West there's been a lot of controversy about Leopards and the ambient humidity here causing serious URTI's in them and they are dying from it. So it seems like their lungs can't handle the kind of humidity that Sulcata can, for example. So we don't want to see a lot of humidity with them, we don't want humid hides for them. So if I was keeping a Leo I wouldn't have the humidity much over 50%. And that's with warm weather. The problem comes about here because the weather is wet and cold and that's really hard on Leopards lungs...

 

[matt41gb]

Yes, leopards as well as sulcatas need a certain amount of humidity in their enclosures. If you keep the ambient humidity up then your leopard will eventually come down with a respiratory infection.

In the wild they will dig burrows to beat the dry, harsh conditions of desert life. In those burrows, the humidity can reach 70%. This is where they get the smooth growth that you would see in the wild.

What you need to do is drop the ambient humidity and create a micro-climate of moderate to high humidity. The tortoise will use it as a burrow when it chooses. Your leopard shouldn't be stuck with one climate.

I kept a leopard outdoors here in N. Texas last year. You would think it is hot and dry here with low humidity. When it's in the 90s and 100s and it rains, the humidity is insanely high. My little leopard did not agree with this and would get sick. Finally I had to keep him inside with better controlled temps and micro-climates.

Just think about where he's from, and what conditions a leopard lives in every day. This can really go a long way in raising a healthy tortoise.

-Matt

 

[Tom]

Matt, this has not been my experience with leopards and humidity at all. I did have one start to get a respiratory problem when I allowed his night temps to drop too low, but other than that I've never had a problem. Even with that one all I had to do was raise his night temps up to 80 for a few days and he had a complete recovery with no meds or complications. I found the key to be not allowing them to get too cool while in a humid environment.

I have also had zero success stopping or slowing pyramiding with micro-climate management or humid hide boxes alone. My best example is my two year old sulcata. For six months she's been living on wet substrate, with a wet humid hide box, in a covered tank, with several daily mistings of the entire enclosure and daily soaks. Ambient room humidity is maintained at 50% or so with the aid of a room humidifier. Night temps are 77-80. She's completely healthy with no sign of respiratory problems or shell rot. I watch her like a hawk for any sign of humidity related problems.

I would guess you had a problem because the outdoor night temps dropped too low during humid spell.

Emulating and trying to imitate what we think they encounter out in the wild is exactly what led to every captive bred desert species of tortoise pyramiding in the past.

I'm not trying to argue or make you look bad, we've just had two very different experiences with leopards and humidity. Lately, I've noticed this happening when two people, like you and I, live in different parts of the country, with very different climates. It makes it difficult to advise people.

So for Kyle, where in the country are you? One thing we will all agree on is don't let them get cold and damp at the same time. I haven't had any respiratory problems where I live with leopards kept humid, but it is typically VERY DRY here. This could certainly be the whole difference between mine and Matt's differing experiences. When I house them humid, I also put them out in the warm/hot sun for a couple hours a day. With single digit humidity this would certainly allow their respiratory tract to dry out for a while every day. Maybe that accounts for the difference. You'll have to gauge it by where you live, how badly you want to stop the pyramiding, and how your tortoise handles whatever you set-up. Keep us posted as we can all learn from whatever way it works out for you.

 

[kyle42leopards]

I live in mesa, Arizona which is very close to phoenix. Not very humid here and pretty much perfect conditions for leos and sulcatas. I too give my baby leos time outside each day usually a couple hours in there predator proof cage so they can graze and soak up the sun.

Ive decided to use a decent sized plastic container that will take up about 1/4 of enclosure, i'am going to use moist sphagnom moss as the substrate in the hide.

We will see how effective it is since I just got a new baby last week and I will notice if his shell is pyramiding, even though his breeder kept him in dry conditions I don't think tht will matter too much.

 

[Tom]

Matt and Maggie are both very experienced tortoise keepers, so I'd certainly pay attention to what they have to say. Having said that, your area (climate) and style of tortoise keeping seems very similar to mine. I would guess than that your results will be too. If your going to use a large humid hide box like that, just make sure you keep them warm at night and give them the opportunity/choice to get good and hot during the day. Obviously keep a close watch for any sign of respiratory problems and make adjustments as needed. If your tortoise stays healthy, but still pyramids, you'll know that you didn't go humid enough. If he starts to get a respiratory infection, you'll know you went too damp/cool. I don't think you'll see the latter in your area as long as you don't let the temps drop. This has been my experience with Leopards, sulcatas and CDTs. As I said before, please keep us posted as I would certainly like to add whatever you learn as an important piece to this great puzzle.

 

[matt41gb]

Matt, this has not been my experience with leopards and humidity at all. I did have one start to get a respiratory problem when I allowed his night temps to drop too low, but other than that I've never had a problem. Even with that one all I had to do was raise his night temps up to 80 for a few days and he had a complete recovery with no meds or complications. I found the key to be not allowing them to get too cool while in a humid environment.

I have also had zero success stopping or slowing pyramiding with micro-climate management or humid hide boxes alone. My best example is my two year old sulcata. For six months she's been living on wet substrate, with a wet humid hide box, in a covered tank, with several daily mistings of the entire enclosure and daily soaks. Ambient room humidity is maintained at 50% or so with the aid of a room humidifier. Night temps are 77-80. She's completely healthy with no sign of respiratory problems or shell rot. I watch her like a hawk for any sign of humidity related problems.

I would guess you had a problem because the outdoor night temps dropped too low during humid spell.

Emulating and trying to imitate what we think they encounter out in the wild is exactly what led to every captive bred desert species of tortoise pyramiding in the past.

I'm not trying to argue or make you look bad, we've just had two very different experiences with leopards and humidity. Lately, I've noticed this happening when two people, like you and I, live in different parts of the country, with very different climates. It makes it difficult to advise people.

So for Kyle, where in the country are you? One thing we will all agree on is don't let them get cold and damp at the same time. I haven't had any respiratory problems where I live with leopards kept humid, but it is typically VERY DRY here. This could certainly be the whole difference between mine and Matt's differing experiences. When I house them humid, I also put them out in the warm/hot sun for a couple hours a day. With single digit humidity this would certainly allow their respiratory tract to dry out for a while every day. Maybe that accounts for the difference. You'll have to gauge it by where you live, how badly you want to stop the pyramiding, and how your tortoise handles whatever you set-up. Keep us posted as we can all learn from whatever way it works out for you.

Roachman, what part of the country are you from? I never left my leopard outside if the temps dropped below 80 at night, so I know that wasn't an issue. It was like clockwork. When it rained and the humidity skyrocketed, the little leo would get sick. My big 80 lb sulcata would sometimes start with the runny nose.

In my experience there is an obvious direct connection between wet conditions and humidity. I know it does rain in Africa, and they are exposed to this same rise in humidity, but it's only for a short time. How long have you been keeping your leopard in this condition? What kind of enclosure is it? I'm just curious.

I'm still sticking with my keeping it natural idea since it seems to work just fine. It's funny how two different people can keep a species of animal in two different climates, and it seems to work. I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong. Between you and I there is probably that "happy medium" somewhere that works perfectly.

I certainly don't have all the answers to this issue, but I'm very interested in it and enjoy the research. Keep the ideas coming!

-Matt

 

[kyle42leopards]

At night my temps drop to about 70 but iam going to close the entrance to the humidity box at night anyways since I dont want them sleeping in there over night.