Do you think it's ethical to keep reptiles as pets?

[Tortus]

This was inspired by another thread. Maybe "ethical" isn't the right word.

I've had reptiles all my life. I've had green iguanas, uromastyx, bearded dragons, anoles, horn toad lizards, snakes, aquatic turtles, and now a tortoise.

What they all have in common is they don't want to be restrained. They don't want to be in enclosures. They don't want their range limited to one small area. They really don't like our company, even if we want to believe they do.

I find them beautiful and fascinating. But when I think about it, I don't believe they were meant to be pets. They tolerate us at best.

I think this tortoise will be my last reptile. It was captive born and I can't release it into the wild, so I'll do my best to make it happy. Even captive born reptiles yearn to be free. Sometimes I feel selfish.

 

[StudentoftheReptile]

This was inspired by another thread. Maybe "ethical" isn't the right word.

What they all have in common is they don't want to be restrained. They don't want to be in enclosures. They don't want their range limited to one small area. They really don't like our company, even if we want to believe they do.

Oh boy...where's the popcorn-eating emoticon? LOL
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First of all, you have to define whether or not how you keep said animal is considered inhumane or subtracting from quality of life, before you try to figure out whether it is "ethical" to do so. You say they don't "like" our company and don't like to be restrained, etc., and to some degree, that is true. Reptiles are not social animals (with few exceptions) and certainly not domesticated in the traditional sense; likewise, they want plenty of space to feel "free."

Now because they are not typically social, and for the most part, not as "evolved" as the higher animals we do considered domesticated (dogs, cats, livestock), if their basic needs are met, quality of life is a lot easier to achieve/provide than it is for say, a dog, or a monkey, which aside from basic amenities (food, water, shelter), also need regular mental stimulation, etc. In other words, if you provide a spacious, proper habitat for your tortoise, and offer it a well-balanced proper diet, it is not "pining" to be in the wild like Marty the zebra from the film, Madagascar. It doesn't have the mental capacity to do so. It has heat, UV, food, shelter, water...yeah, it could always appreciate a little more room, but it's set! Obviously, widcaught specimens don't always acclimate as well as captive-bred animals do, but for the most part, reptiles do just fine if you give them what they need.

I find them beautiful and fascinating.

WHich is why you and most of us keep them. At the core, no matter how you rationalize it, we do keep these animals for our own enjoyment. Yes, some of us do rescue work or conservation work, but that's not usually how it started out. You wanted something cool to care for, handle and keep in a little glass box and that's why you got it. I'm not judging, because I'm in the same boat.

But when I think about it, I don't believe they were meant to be pets. They tolerate us at best.

That is very true. But one could argue that wolves were never really meant to be pets either, but that is where the domesticated dog came from. Same goes for cattle and poultry.

I think this tortoise will be my last reptile. It was captive born and I can't release it into the wild, so I'll do my best to make it happy.

That is your decision. But sometimes I think about it this way...in their native land, reptiles have to worry about predators, disease and parasites, on top of just trying to find food for themselves. Yes, something that cna be said for overcollecting from wild populations, but if I can give a tortoise a "free ride" where it doesn't have to worry about that, I feel like I'm doing good. Mind you, I'm not out to rescue all the sulcatas and redfoots in the world.

Another thing to consider is that captive breeding is really the only way to preserve endangered species. Not really a

Even captive born reptiles yearn to be free.

Again, this is kind of subjective, since there is no way to say exactly what the emotional capacity of a reptile is. Does a captive-born tortoise who has never set foot on the African savannah or South American rainforest really going to know what it's missing and just lead a depressed life "yearning" for more? Or will it just take things as it comes; food brought it it everyday, no concern for predation, etc.

I think the latter is more likely.

 

[kimber_lee_314]

Sometimes I do feel sad for mine even though they all have lovely outdoor enclosures. None of them can ever go back to the wild so I try to do my best to replicate where they should be. That's about the best I can do. Also, in captivity they get so much more than they would in the wild - constant sources of food and water and vet care when they are sick. It's the same for my birds. The yearn to be free - but to release them would be cruel. It's a hard question, but I feel like as long as we do the best we can with them, it's okay to keep them as pets.

 

[Tortus]

Yes, I think captive born reptiles instinctively know all about freedom. All of mine have been born in captivity, and all of them want nothing more than to escape. No matter how big the enclosure or how good the food is. Even people who keep them in their yards report of escapes. They want to be out and do their own thing.

I liken this to raising wild baby birds that I've found in the yard. They don't know a thing about the wild since their eyes were shut when I found them. But when they got their feathers and I took them outside, they were gone. I've raised two wild baby doves and a robin. They knew what freedom was.

As far as using conservation as an excuse, who does that benefit? Does it benefit the animal, being kept in a situation it doesn't want to be in just so we can look at them for a few more years?

I dunno. I'm just rethinking a few things.

 

[DanieltheAnvil]

I think reptiles do well is captivity. they have no predators hunting them everyday, they are not searching for food. though we enjoy interaction with them, I doubt they mind all that often. A Good pet owner keeps working till their pet is happy.

In some religions including Christianity (dont delete my post) it talks about God giving man authority over animals. (No debating this I'm just bringing it up)

With that being said. I would put up some pet mothers/fathers or mother nature anytime. thats why mistreatment of anaimals is so worng. if your are trusted with the life of an animal to improve its quality of life, then do it right.

 

[wellington]

Everyone has great points. The fact of it is, they are always going to be sold as pets, right or wrong. Once it started, it won't go back. You can be a care giver or not. But they are always going to be for sale. I see it this way. I know how well I take care of my animals. I spend whatever it takes and do whatever it takes. If its living with me, then it can't go to someone like on Craigslist.

 

[Tortus]

I agree that they're relatively safe in good, human care. They get proper food and vet care when needed. They don't have to worry about predators, even though they often seem to think that WE are the predators.

But when I see them trying to escape and sometimes actually looking sad, it makes me think that the trade of these animals is unethical. My uromastyx eats like a pig and I've had it ever since it was a hatchling, but I still see it scratching at the glass and sometimes laying there with it's head pressed against it, apparently wanting nothing more than to be anywhere else. It wants to dig a huge, deep burrow, forage for food, and go where it wants when it wants.

I can't provide that. And it's in a large enclosure. I don't think the size makes much difference when they know they have boundaries. You could put me in a prison and feed me filet mignon every day and I'd still want to be out.

 

[StudentoftheReptile]

Yes, I think captive born reptiles instinctively know all about freedom. All of mine have been born in captivity, and all of them want nothing more than to escape. No matter how big the enclosure or how good the food is. Even people who keep them in their yards report of escapes. They want to be out and do their own thing.

I liken this to raising wild baby birds that I've found in the yard. They don't know a thing about the wild since their eyes were shut when I found them. But when they got their feathers and I took them outside, they were gone. I've raised two wild baby doves and a robin. They knew what freedom was.

Well, if this is how you truly feel, then it sounds like keeping any form of exotic animal (fish, bird, reptile, amphibian, etc.) is clearly not for you. Just don't become an animal rights activist, because most of the people on this board feel very strongly about it and the AR movement is the enemy of most that do keep these types of animals as pets.

As far as using conservation as an excuse, who does that benefit? Does it benefit the animal, being kept in a situation it doesn't want to be in just so we can look at them for a few more years?

Conservation benefits the species. Otherwise, eventually there will none ANYWHERE and once the last one dies (wherever it may be), the only way anyone can enjoy them is through a photograph or arhived video. I don't want my kids growing up in a world where they would be able to see an Aldabra tortoise in person or an Alabama red-bellied turtle (my state reptile). There are a lot of people across the world doing very good work to preserve reptile species. Simply making a designated area into a national park isn't enough. Captive breeding is part of the process of restoring endangered species.

 

[Tortus]

And if none are anywhere else but in captivity, what difference does that make? They're not in nature contributing to the food chain. They're not living as they were intended to live. Might as well just be looking at a picture IMO.

What if tasmanian tigers were still in zoos? Ok, there's a cool animal that I can take my kids to go see. There it is, pacing back and forth in the exhibit, going stir crazy, wanting to be free.

Yeah, that's really benefiting the species.

 

[StudentoftheReptile]

I agree that they're relatively safe in good, human care. They get proper food and vet care when needed. They don't have to worry about predators, even though they often seem to think that WE are the predators.

I disagree. I have had many reptiles that will run right up to me when I bring food. I don't think they "like" me, but they clearly are smart enough to know that I am not a threat. If they percieved me as a predator, they wouldn't act that way. Of course, every individual animal is different as well. I have had some lizards that didn't particularly like being handled but they did not run away from me when I approached.

I think your reptile keeping experience is a little limited.

But when I see them trying to escape and sometimes actually looking sad, it makes me think that the trade of these animals is unethical. My uromastyx eats like a pig and I've had it ever since it was a hatchling, but I still see it scratching at the glass and sometimes laying there with it's head pressed against it, apparently wanting nothing more than to be anywhere else. It wants to dig a huge, deep burrow, forage for food, and go where it wants when it wants.

How large are your enclosures? NO matter...Like Barbara said, the pet industry will always continue, whether you are in it or not. My stance is that a lot of animals are going to end up as food, skinned for wallets or belts, or dying in poor set-ups by ignorant keepers. In the wild, they will live a very shortened life, filled with competition, predators and disease. You, me, nor anyone else can stop this huge machine. I'm not out to rescue every single reptile out there in pet shops and expos, but with proper care, I really don't think these reptiles are as "sad" or "pining for freedom" as much as you think they are. I think you have a limited understanding of the mental capacity of reptiles and are guilty of a little anthropomorphizing.

For example, please explain to me how a reptile which has no facial muscles capable of expressing emotion can "look sad" as you put it.

I can't provide that. And it's in a large enclosure. I don't think the size makes much difference when they know they have boundaries.

You can always go bigger, but again, if you are unable to, perhaps exotic pets are not for you. But still, I think the hang-up is more on your end, than the reptiles.

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And if none are anywhere else but in captivity, what difference does that make? They're not in nature contributing to the food chain. They're not living as they were intended to live. Might as well just be looking at a picture IMO.

What if tasmanian tigers were still in zoos? Ok, there's a cool animal that I can take my kids to go see. There it is, pacing back and forth in the exhibit, going stir crazy, wanting to be free.

Yeah, that's really benefiting the species.

Then what is your proposal? Just turn everything free and let everything die when we have paved the entire planet over with concrete and asphalt? LOL....seriously, are you a member of PETA?

 

[Tortus]

I'm saying that very few owners of exotics can provide what they crave. If any. I once turned an entire bedroom into a jungle for a green iguana and it still wanted out.

They look sad by their posture. Their movements. By behaviour that doesn't seem natural. You call yourself a student, but have you actually studied them?

And yes, if a species can't ever be free again in the wild and is miserable in captivity it's only around for our amusement. Maybe large zoos can make them somewhat content, but as pets for your average Joe I don't think so.

 

[StudentoftheReptile]

I'm saying that very few owners of exotics can provide what they crave. If any. I once turned an entire bedroom into a jungle for a green iguana and it still wanted out.

They look sad by their posture. Their movements. By behaviour that doesn't seem natural. You call yourself a student, but have you actually studied them?

And yes, if a species can't ever be free again in the wild and is miserable in captivity it's only around for our amusement. Maybe large zoos can make them somewhat content, but as pets for your average Joe I don't think so.

LOL...again, your experience must be very limited indeed. I have seen a much greater number of private keepers that take much better care of their herps than the majority of zoos. Most zoos are about on par with pet shops.

Yes, I have studied them....and part of that comes objective observation that does not include attributing human characteristics to creatures that do not possess them.
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I'm not going to have a pissing match with you to find out how many herps you have actually owned and how you cared for them. That's great that you turned a whole room into an iguanarium, most people wouldn't do that. But by everything else you have posted, you still apparently lack a perspective on the issue. To even imply that any form of conservation effort is "selfish" is evident of a narrow-minded view indeed.

How old are you by the way? Just a ballpark (since its probably against rules to give that info out)...mid 20s? You in college? Still in highschool? Give me a point of reference.

 

[Tortus]

Well I've been warned not to get into a debate with you, so this will be my last reply.

Conservation of wild animals is great if it's to keep them alive in the wild. Keeping them as pets just so we can look at them is on the selfish side in my opinion. And this is coming from someone who's kept them for over 20 years so I guess it sounds hypocritical. I know they need a good home and I try to provide that, even though in the back of my mind I think I shouldn't be supporting the exotic pet trade at all.

What if some giant alien species took the last humans to their planet and put them in a big bubble? They provide the humans with a house, food, and medical care when needed. But when you go outside, you see the bubble. You know you can't go anywhere else. Ever. That's it. And you see the aliens staring at you all day. Sure you can breed and possibly keep the species alive for a few more generations, but at what cost? What quality of life would you have? Would it matter if the humans simply died out rather than to be imprisoned?

It's just something I've been thinking about. People can disagree and I'm not claiming to be 100% right. But from all I've seen, this is how I currently feel. I still love my herps but sometimes I feel bad for them. Maybe I just need a nap.

 

[dmmj]

Well I've been warned not to get into a debate with you, so this will be my last reply.

Who warned you? you can debate all you want as long as it is civil.

 

[Yvonne G]

This is a debatable topic. It's perfectly fine to debate. What's not fine is name calling or rude remarks. Just keep it clean and you'll be fine.

 

[Tortus]

I won't say who warned me but and I'm trying to be civil. But someone making multiple assumptions about me doesn't sit well so I see their point and I'll just leave it at that. It's one thing to debate, and another to basically attack someone's character and assume they can't care for their pets, question their age, and ask if they're a member of PETA.

I hope I didn't sound rude. I wasn't trying to.

 

[StudentoftheReptile]

Well I've been warned not to get into a debate with you, so this will be my last reply.

What on earth for? Because I like to debate?

Conservation of wild animals is great if it's to keep them alive in the wild. Keeping them as pets just so we can look at them is on the selfish side in my opinion. And this is coming from someone who's kept them for over 20 years so I guess it sounds hypocritical. I know they need a good home and I try to provide that, even though in the back of my mind I think I shouldn't be supporting the exotic pet trade at all.

And you know, to some degree, I can agree with that. I personally have no interest to contribute to the wild collection of species where it isn't needed. I really have little interest in "buying" animals at all. I will adopt and rehome them occasionally, but for the most part, I am more interested in conservation, which is why I started my own herp society in my area for likeminded people such as myself who are not content whining about how awful the big bad pet trade is behind a computer screen.

What if some giant alien species took the last humans to their planet and put them in a big bubble? They provide the humans with a house, food, and medical care when needed. But when you go outside, you see the bubble. You know you can't go anywhere else. Ever. That's it. And you see the aliens staring at you all day.

Sorry, comparing animals to humans doesn't fly with me. Apples and oranges. Plus, I like to stick to realworld hypotheticals, not outlandish fantasies that cannot be tested.

It's just something I've been thinking about. People can disagree and I'm not claiming to be 100% right.

I don't mind people voicing their opinions. But you started this thread asking for other people's opinions and you got mine. One of my personal pet peeves is when people base their opinions on narrow-mindedness, and can't back up their claims.

But from all I've seen, this is how I currently feel. I still love my herps but sometimes I feel bad for them. Maybe I just need a nap.

Myabe so.

 

[Cowboy_Ken]

Wow. What a tread to stumble into! So as far as pets wanting to be free to do their own thing, my cats would love nothing more than to be free of the house at night to be picked off my the coyotes. And there was a time that my daughter wanted the “freedom" at 15 to date a 23 yr old. I gladly shut all that down not for my entertainment but simply because I know better than the cats and my daughter when she was 15.
As for placing human emotions on any animal, I find this is as false as thinking I know how it feels to fly like a bird or to hunt like a tiger.

 

[StudentoftheReptile]

It's one thing to debate, and another to basically attack someone's character and assume they can't care for their pets, question their age, and ask if they're a member of PETA.

I never attacked your character, or nor did I state that you do not care for your pets. Please quote where I did so.
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I only questioned why you felt the way you did, and to be honest, some of your counter-arguments do not hold up.

I admit the PETA querie was a bit much, but I do take AR very seriously as they are a threat to everyone on this forum. Some of the things you were suggesting is EXACTLY what I have heard known PETA members say, and it just flabbergasted me that a tortoise keeper would have this mentality.

I merely wanted to shed a bigger perspective on the issue, because I have had this conversation countless times. On some of your points, we can certainly agree; yes, the pet industry has many flaws. Yes, the simple act of keeping a pet is selfish on our part. But as I said before, the machine is too large to fight, and to be honest, there are many more important things going on in this world to concern yourself with than trying to figure out how "happy" your tortoise is.

Do whatever makes you sleep better at night, but I know I take darn good care of my animals, and at the rate we are decimating this planet, I would rather give a handful even a half-way decent life living in my home or in my backyard than having them roasted alive over a fire, skinned alive, crushed by a bulldozer, or torn apart by a predator.

I know I come on strong, and I have strong opinions about this kinda stuff, but it really does irk me when people don't see the bigger picture on these subjects.

 

[Tortus]

^^Dogs and cats love to go outside, but all of mine come back. Most seem to genuinely enjoy human contact. I can't say the same for my green iguana with his own room. I put him on the screened porch one day to get some sun. Went in for a drink. And that was the last I saw of him. I still don't know how he got out since there are no holes in the screen. I thought it was secure but it wasn't.

Iguanas are masters of escape. My cousin had one that got loose when we were kids and we posted flyers around the neighborhood. Someone found it 1/2 a mile away.

I knew my alien/human comment would get some flack, but from watching reptile behavior for so many years I have to think this is how they feel. Some cope much better than others in captivity so I won't assume they're all miserable. But I do think they all want to get away. I remember seeing a large iguana in a zoo in a large outdoor enclosure. It was pacing back and forth trying to get through the mesh. Even though it had trees and all kinds of things you'd see in nature.