Do you think it's ethical to keep reptiles as pets?

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Tortus

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Floof said:
The brain fails me on forming words to respond right now. Darn it. lol.

One thing I wanted to say: Maybe my understanding here is limited, but, from where I stand, there seems to be a drastic difference between Animal Rights and Animal Welfare...

AR brings you people like PETA and HSUS who take it too far. Animals deserve human rights... Like lawyers. Humans shouldn't have any hand in any captive animal... Not even dogs, cats, cattle. Forget hunting for sustenance. That's as bad as murder. For all intents and purposes, HSUS and PETA appear to believe that animals are better off put to sleep than in captivity. Forget having them "grandfathered" in.

Animal Welfare, on the other hand, brings you people who care about the actual welfare, the actual quality of life, of animals. They don't seek to ban your ability to have a dog or enjoy the majesty that is the satisfied and well-kept captive snake, lizard, tortoise. They seek to educate and ensure that those captive animals ARE given the care they deserve.

Again, maybe my definition of these things is limited, but I wanted to share my understanding of what exactly AR and AW are. In hopes of understanding each other better.

Oh... And chocolate chip all the way. :p

Well that post confused me probably about as how many are confused about this thread in general. lol. Let's just all take it in.

I don't believe that most who profess a desire to promote "animal welfare" really know what that means. I have discussed this topic on another forum with people who are not particularly inclined to keep reptiles, but they seem to have some perspective. I'll quote one post from that forum and see what you think:

I'm not sure that reptiles want anything other than food and proper temperature and moisture. I question whether they are even capable of suffering in any sense comparable to mammals. Their nervous system and brain structure is so different. They have no cerebral cortex so it's hard to see how there can be any self awareness to experience the pain.

If you look into the eyes of a cat or dog or horse or dolphin or whale or cow there's a soul for lack of a better word looking back at you. Reptiles can be interesting creatures but there is nothing behind their eyes. I guess it's why some people find them repulsive. BTW I'm not suggesting that people should harm reptiles for no good reason. Even if they don't suffer, they are important, unique, a product of billions of years of evolution and all that.

I'm not saying I agree with that post, because I don't. But is this how some of you feel? That is really the vibe I'm getting from some. As long as they're safe and healthy, they're content since they don't have the capacity to feel anything else.
 

wellington

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I would never say that any living thing can't feel pain. I do however think they can not feel emotions, at least in the sense we think. I kiss my leopard on the head all the time. He will stick his head out for me to keep doing it. Well, that's what I think. I doubt he really is thinking that. He may like it as maybe it feels good or maybe he likes the kissing sound i make or maybe he is trying to look further to find an excape route. All animals are just as important as the next. If there were no humans, animals would survive, I do believe every single one of them would survive. Man has made/ruined this world in such a way, that we are now needed to protect and care for animals(animal is being used to cover all, reptiles, bugs, etc)and to keep them from extinction. Do we do it wrong, of course some of us do, hybrids, morphs, mutts, man is the most greedy living species. It's the world we live in now. Do we have the right to just leave them be? NO, we humans have made the world in such a way that, they could not survive with out our intervention. If we could turn the clock back a few hundred/thousand years, they wouldn't need us. We can't turn the clock back.
 

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That's an interesting post, Tortus. Not entirely sure what you were hoping to get across by posting it, but it's interesting to see an "outsider's" (so to speak) view on reptiles. Kind of interesting to me that someone who just sees reptiles as something that exists doesn't see anything in their eyes, where those of us who appreciate and interact with them DO see that something.

If anything, it more reminds me the value of having reptiles (those who DO thrive in captivity--recognizing that some don't) in captivity where people like this can experience them and perhaps see that, oh, there is something more to them. Maybe they do deserve more than to have their heads chopped off for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. My younger brother is an example of this: the type of person to kill a snake without a thought because, oh, I don't like it or I don't care to find out whether it's venomous, but his interactions with my own pets have taught him that these animals deserve respect just like any other. That snakes aren't out to get him and shouldn't be killed thoughtlessly. Et cetera.

Eeeh, didn't see your edit until I was done typing all that. Like I already made clear, I certainly don't agree with that view of reptiles... But having emotion, feeling pain, however you characterize it, doesn't automatically mean that animal constantly yearns for freedom. They may not be completely "soulless" creatures, they may be able to feel and recognize pain, but that doesn't mean they garner the kind of intelligence and self-awareness that humans, we creatures who have mastered language and built societies, possess. I truly do think that a reptile who is given all that it could want or need is a happy reptile. Regular and appropriate food, the right temperature zones, the right humidity, clean water, enough space to explore and be content.

Maybe I see this side of their behavior easier because I can sympathize with it. I'm a complete and total homebody. Where some suffer if they aren't constantly out and about and doing SOMETHING (my roommate has a panic attack if she has to stay at home longer than an hour after she wakes up or gets off work; my dad goes stir-crazy if he doesn't get a vacation in a different state/region/country at least once every few months), I'm perfectly happy to be at home. As long as I have good food, heat and AC that works, and animals to dote on, I could go months without leaving the house and be perfectly happy.

Which brings up a good point. It's all in perspective. From where I sit, having your own little territory with all your needs met in that space is enough. From a different standpoint, that's just insane. Who would want to sit at home all day? You need to be out! Doing things! Constantly! The only thing "home" is useful for is to store your food and bed!

So maybe that's why I have trouble seeing what you see... To me, I see satisfied, happy animals who are content where they are so long as they have what they need, because that's exactly the way I am. I'm sure someone with wanderlust and/or a constant ache for "freedom" from the norm has a completely different interpretation of this or that behavior.
 

TortoiseBoy1999

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I'll be honest, My reptiles never try to escape and never scratch their walls of their enclosures and they are very happy when I take them out (because I take them out very often) and by the time they get back in they are all tired out :)P) so I know that they are happy, healthy and content :) So in my situation I do not think it is a bad thing to keep reptiles because there is no harm in doing it because they bring joy to me and they are safe, happy and healthy apposed to all the dangers in being in the wild :)
 

sueb4653

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Floof said:
That's an interesting post, Tortus. Not entirely sure what you were hoping to get across by posting it, but it's interesting to see an "outsider's" (so to speak) view on reptiles. Kind of interesting to me that someone who just sees reptiles as something that exists doesn't see anything in their eyes, where those of us who appreciate and interact with them DO see that something.

If anything, it more reminds me the value of having reptiles (those who DO thrive in captivity--recognizing that some don't) in captivity where people like this can experience them and perhaps see that, oh, there is something more to them. Maybe they do deserve more than to have their heads chopped off for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. My younger brother is an example of this: the type of person to kill a snake without a thought because, oh, I don't like it or I don't care to find out whether it's venomous, but his interactions with my own pets have taught him that these animals deserve respect just like any other. That snakes aren't out to get him and shouldn't be killed thoughtlessly. Et cetera.

Eeeh, didn't see your edit until I was done typing all that. Like I already made clear, I certainly don't agree with that view of reptiles... But having emotion, feeling pain, however you characterize it, doesn't automatically mean that animal constantly yearns for freedom. They may not be completely "soulless" creatures, they may be able to feel and recognize pain, but that doesn't mean they garner the kind of intelligence and self-awareness that humans, we creatures who have mastered language and built societies, possess. I truly do think that a reptile who is given all that it could want or need is a happy reptile. Regular and appropriate food, the right temperature zones, the right humidity, clean water, enough space to explore and be content.

Maybe I see this side of their behavior easier because I can sympathize with it. I'm a complete and total homebody. Where some suffer if they aren't constantly out and about and doing SOMETHING (my roommate has a panic attack if she has to stay at home longer than an hour after she wakes up or gets off work; my dad goes stir-crazy if he doesn't get a vacation in a different state/region/country at least once every few months), I'm perfectly happy to be at home. As long as I have good food, heat and AC that works, and animals to dote on, I could go months without leaving the house and be perfectly happy.

Which brings up a good point. It's all in perspective. From where I sit, having your own little territory with all your needs met in that space is enough. From a different standpoint, that's just insane. Who would want to sit at home all day? You need to be out! Doing things! Constantly! The only thing "home" is useful for is to store your food and bed!

So maybe that's why I have trouble seeing what you see... To me, I see satisfied, happy animals who are content where they are so long as they have what they need, because that's exactly the way I am. I'm sure someone with wanderlust and/or a constant ache for "freedom" from the norm has a completely different interpretation of this or that behavior.

In this thread someone had brought up birds and there freedom so to speak....in my experience of being a bird owner (parrots in particular) we had free flyers meaning their wings were not clipped and they flew. We would go to an open area and let them fly..point being they had the opportunity to fly away but they always came back.....so in my thinking birds ( birds related to turtles http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/05/120523200301.htm) ,reptiles I think can be content in their environment like everyone has said as long as they are cared for.
hmm did that make sense?
 

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I think it is ethical to keep reptiles if you take good care of them and provide everyhting they need within reason to be happy.
The hrass is always greener on the other side.
I think many animals in the wild would love to have the food, lighting, protection, lack of extreme weather, lack of drought that are captives have.
In a perfect world without problems, plaching, etc. freedome always sounds good.
My reptiles have a good life and are well protected. They dont know it, but I do.

Just my two cents. ;)
 

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Floof said:
If anything, it more reminds me the value of having reptiles (those who DO thrive in captivity--recognizing that some don't) in captivity where people like this can experience them and perhaps see that, oh, there is something more to them. Maybe they do deserve more than to have their heads chopped off for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. My younger brother is an example of this: the type of person to kill a snake without a thought because, oh, I don't like it or I don't care to find out whether it's venomous, but his interactions with my own pets have taught him that these animals deserve respect just like any other. That snakes aren't out to get him and shouldn't be killed thoughtlessly. Et cetera.

Eeeh, didn't see your edit until I was done typing all that. Like I already made clear, I certainly don't agree with that view of reptiles... But having emotion, feeling pain, however you characterize it, doesn't automatically mean that animal constantly yearns for freedom. They may not be completely "soulless" creatures, they may be able to feel and recognize pain, but that doesn't mean they garner the kind of intelligence and self-awareness that humans, we creatures who have mastered language and built societies, possess. I truly do think that a reptile who is given all that it could want or need is a happy reptile. Regular and appropriate food, the right temperature zones, the right humidity, clean water, enough space to explore and be content.wakes up or gets off work; my dad goes stir-crazy if he doesn't get a vacation in a different state/region/country at least once every few months), I'm perfectly happy to be at home. As long as I have good food, heat and AC that works, and animals to dote on, I could go months without leaving the house and be perfectly happy.

I think it comes down to where you draw the line. At which point does an animal gain Rights; self awareness?, language?, complexity of society? Or if you do not think animals (minus humans) should ever have Rights, then when do they become deserving of respect? Many (most?) people have no problem killing pests (insects, rodents,etc). Where does killing animals out of convenience (or for fun) become unacceptable?

It is a complex issue; any 'solution' is probably going to use gerrymandered logic and be hypocritical in some way. That is the problem some have with this issue - there is no easy answer. I do not think it is debatable in the sense that one side will 'win', but in the sense that everyone can get a better understanding of the other side.
 

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Oh my gosh! Tub of ice cream for reading all these posts :)

Iv rescue few animals in the past 2years, iv had to be careful, as am not aloud pets in my apartment, but I can't help myself. All are small and fluffy, or water babes or my torts. I did buy my two torts from a good breeder though and my next two chinchillas, as iv had my heart shattered with the deaths. Deaths from nothing iv done, from the owner before me. The state my last chinchilla was in, am surprised I had him for six months, he was very scared of us 'humans', but after five months, he was a huge turn around, hop on our laps, take treats, have a cuddle and I could tell he loved my girl hamster. He had a huge amount of time out 'in the home freedom', like all my pets do, and all have stupid amount of love, care and very spoilt.

Sad story behind my Axolotl, he was going to get flushed down the loo, his owner was board of him.

I adopted a two year old hamster, I had her for two months, totally spoilt and loved. Died in my arms :,( owner before me, dump her on the counter of 'pets at home' (I hate this place with a passion! All animals there need rescuing if you ask me!), said 'we don't want her anymore, she's two' and they just walked out.

There is more iv adopted, but folk like these, really **** me off! I believe animals give us love back and on selfish note, make us very happy. When they do something adorable and we snap it, share it and see the feed back, we acted like proud parents, or is that just me lol. Sometimes it goes wrong, sad to read pets walking out on us :-( my heart would break if that was me. Iv had my cutest hamster escape into my walls, he came back, he knew he had it made with me, huge cage, food, water, comfort and cuddles.

My two torts, I went for there breed as there small and the 'easy' breed to look after. Iv had them since march, iv studied them, heard what my breeder and vets had to say about them and there life style. Iv come up with an ideal design table/viv, can't be bought, so am building it, cost a fair bit for a poor ophthalmic dispenser, but I love them and am sure they know it. I'll do anything for them and the rest of my clang.

That's my two pennies worth, I know we all have our own opinions on the matter. I guess my ideal world is, we have pets, we look after them the best we can and as close to there natural habitat. And people to study these animals before buying :)
 

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So the premise of the OP is that because a reptile paws at the glass occasionally, it means they yearn to be free and abhor our horrible captive environments, and we are unethical for keeping them?

This is absurd. They paw at the glass because they wanna go that way. Not because they have some human-like sense of "freedom" or "captivity". In the wild they would simply walk in a given direction because they feel like it at that moment. We restrict the area they can roam out of necessity and for their own safety.

My opinion: If they are well cared for and their needs met, there is nothing unethical about keeping a pet reptile.


Floof, your assessment of AR vs. AW is right on. Good explanation.

Mike, stop that sissy talk and get your a** back on here. 100s or 1000s of people read these threads. You want them only reading emotion based animal rights non-sense. Threads like this CAN change people's minds. Which way do you want them swayed? You know what you gotta do. Keep typing.


Now then, with all the serious stuff done, I would really enjoy debating and or exploring the whole "aliens keeping us captive" thing. Now that would be a fun topic! :)
 

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Tom said:
Now then, with all the serious stuff done, I would really enjoy debating and or exploring the whole "aliens keeping us captive" thing. Now that would be a fun topic! :)
Yeah! And if aliens "breeded" us to keep our species alive, and then released us later, at least we wouldn't be completely wiped out, even at the cost of a few peoples quality of life.
 

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For all the talk about freedoms, in reality, nothing living is truly "free." There have always existed boundaries (i.e., gravity, shorelines, universal/ man-made laws) that limit freedoms for all...and for good reason. My mind could go into areas that would distract from my point, so I won't go there. Which one of us wouldn't love to do anything they want whenever they want and however they want IF they could? The truth is that it can never happen; not for us, and not for animals/reptiles. Having said that, the question shouldn't be whether or not it is ethical to have reptiles as pets based on the freedom argument. For all those who wish all animals could be free to roam the wild as they were intended to do (I included), the reality is it will never be that way due to the various limitations to freedom. Therefore, at best, what we are really talking about is limited freedoms. So, my question is, if animals/reptiles have limited freedoms, what's so bad about having limited freedoms with man as their caregivers? IF humans can adequately supply all that animals/reptiles need to enjoy (and preserve) life in captivity, there is nothing unethical about that at all. Let's face it, we are going to have pets (within bounds and law) no matter what anyone thinks about it. Let's just make it our goal in life to better the lives of our pets...which is what most of us are doing here.
 

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You know if the "aliens" provided 2 or more females for each male, that might not be a bad thing. :)
 

sibi

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Wow....really?

dmmj said:
You know if the "aliens" provided 2 or more females for each male, that might not be a bad thing. :)
 

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dmmj said:
You know if the "aliens" provided 2 or more females for each male, that might not be a bad thing. :)

Seriously Captain. There is some real merit there, right. Of course they would have to assess and set up appropriate captive groups... But I don't want to derail this thread.
 

sibi

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Or they can provide 2 or more males for each female...of course, boundaries would have to be set.
 

Floof

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dmmj said:
You know if the "aliens" provided 2 or more females for each male, that might not be a bad thing. :)

LOL. Men.... Really!

I dunno... I could get used to the whole alien captive thing. Just as long as there's good food and I don't have to share space with anyone I hate. Or make babies. I do not have a high pain tolerance. Or infant tolerance. Very low infant and small child tolerance.
 

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sibi said:
Or they can provide 2 or more males for each female...of course, boundaries would have to be set.
Yes, but that would not help further the species as well as the other way.
 

sibi

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HaHaHa...that's true, but who cares, everyone would be having so much fun!
 
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