don't ask if you wont take the advice

leigti

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This is an interesting one actually, one which is too quickly dismissed on this forum.
For chelonoidis-in general, some localities of carbonaria are exceptions-, erosa/homeana, impressa, emys, indotestudo etc. , they wouldn't come across what we consider sand in the wild. However, chilensis, elegans, pardalis, testudo genus, etc. would all come across 'sand' in the wild. This would probably be primarily silica, usually in quartz form. This is the kind of continental sand that you'd most likely find in the Russian Steppe, Sub-Saharan Africa, Patagonia, etc. This isn't necessarily baking hot and dry, it can be a mild climate and there can be plenty of grasses, but we would usually classify the small particles of rocks and minerals as sand, rather than rocky sediment. This 'sand' however is quite different to what we get for tortoises in captivity, which I suspect is mainly of carbonate origin, eroded from soft rocks. However, while this 'sand' is very different to the 'sand' found in habitats where most of these tortoises are from, I doubt that there would be much difference in the problems that people have experienced with impaction. Also, at least in theory, the Sonoran Desert sand would probably be very similar to some of the stuff found in the tortoises' habitat even for non-American species, but I don't know how often this is sold as your sand in the States???
The main problem here is a lack of clarity over what we define sand as, and the rocks which this sand came from.
That is why I prefer not to have any sand. also from your above statement I think it is important to preserve the gene pool that you are talking about even if they are crossbred.
 

FLINTUS

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That is why I prefer not to have any sand. also from your above statement I think it is important to preserve the gene pool that you are talking about even if they are crossbred.
It's very hard to do so with the Galapagos tortoises, due to the gegraphical splits in genes, and then a lack of certain species etc.
I don't personally use sand, but it is an interesting subject. Yes the sand we have is different, but why should it be so different that impaction in captivity is quite common, while we don't hear about it from the wild?
 

Yellow Turtle01

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This is an interesting one actually, one which is too quickly dismissed on this forum.
For chelonoidis-in general, some localities of carbonaria are exceptions-, erosa/homeana, impressa, emys, indotestudo etc. , they wouldn't come across what we consider sand in the wild. However, chilensis, elegans, pardalis, testudo genus, etc. would all come across 'sand' in the wild. This would probably be primarily silica, usually in quartz form. This is the kind of continental sand that you'd most likely find in the Russian Steppe, Sub-Saharan Africa, Patagonia, etc. This isn't necessarily baking hot and dry, it can be a mild climate and there can be plenty of grasses, but we would usually classify the small particles of rocks and minerals as sand, rather than rocky sediment. This 'sand' however is quite different to what we get for tortoises in captivity, which I suspect is mainly of carbonate origin, eroded from soft rocks. However, while this 'sand' is very different to the 'sand' found in habitats where most of these tortoises are from, I doubt that there would be much difference in the problems that people have experienced with impaction. Also, at least in theory, the Sonoran Desert sand would probably be very similar to some of the stuff found in the tortoises' habitat even for non-American species, but I don't know how often this is sold as your sand in the States???
The main problem here is a lack of clarity over what we define sand as, and the rocks which this sand came from.
Oh yes, I know. :D I'm using 'sand' as 'calci sand', that nasty fine, colored stuff petstores sell you.
Now, you get actually get washed sylica sand (playsand is okay) and have it be mostly 100% okay. This is sometimes recommended for many arid lizards, and I can see how some arid, drier tortoises could benefit from some natural sand as well. The recommendation, however, is (or should be) usually paired with a recommended age, so that impaction on even larger grains of sand is less likely.
 

Yvonne G

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It's very hard to do so with the Galapagos tortoises, due to the gegraphical splits in genes, and then a lack of certain species etc.
I don't personally use sand, but it is an interesting subject. Yes the sand we have is different, but why should it be so different that impaction in captivity is quite common, while we don't hear about it from the wild?

Mainly because tortoises don't eat very often from the ground. They bite bits off of stems or plants. Also, who knows what the tortoise died from when one finds a carcass or empty shell.
 

Tom

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Just out of interest, I'm going to guess that the person you were referring to regarding raising Sullies was me?

No sir. You would be incorrect. My only beef with anything you have to say is this carapace thickening thing that you sometimes mention in regards to 80% humidity or free feeding. I know Andy like to say this too. The problem with this theory is that in actual real life it doesn't exist. There are hundreds of examples just on this forum to prove it.
 

FLINTUS

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Mainly because tortoises don't eat very often from the ground. They bite bits off of stems or plants. Also, who knows what the tortoise died from when one finds a carcass or empty shell.
Good point actually. Very few people make their tortoises 'work' for their food so to speak in captivity.
 

FLINTUS

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No sir. You would be incorrect. My only beef with anything you have to say is this carapace thickening thing that you sometimes mention in regards to 80% humidity or free feeding. I know Andy like to say this too. The problem with this theory is that in actual real life it doesn't exist. There are hundreds of examples just on this forum to prove it.
Again, none of those examples prove the internal keratin, but there is a general lack of studies showing the density of the keratin, so it's hard to be conclusive. And just to be very clear on this, I'm not saying that high humidity causes this alone, but probably when the shell cannot dry out, i.e. none of the enclosure is less than 75% RH or so, and the keratin becomes saturated.
 

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