Don't buy torts from pet stores!

[Redfoot NERD]

I've asked a couple of y'all "Why should you NOT buy any torts from pet stores"?

Coming from me it has nothing to do with being a breeder! It has everything to do with the health of the tortoise.

Will EVERYBODY please reply to this.. please? Elaborate at length about how you feel about this please! I'll elaborate later.

Thanks...

 

[Josh]

for me it's important that wild species are not taken from their natural habitat. since many pet stores cannot or choose not to verify where they get their animals, i cannot assume that they all carry captive bred animals.
additionally, pet stores need to keep many species on hand to be successful. it would be incredibly difficult to cater 100% to each species unique needs. undoubtedly, corners are cut and its the animals that suffer.

 

[cvalda]

Agreed with Josh on the healthy issues. Of course that is one reason long quarantines are in order.

My question is... what about FARM BRED tortoises? You don't have the whole WC issue... so what are the issues there?

 

[Itort]

Large chain petshops buy their animals from large scale importer/brokers with as much concern for the animal as they would have for bag of food. They then distribute them thruout the chain with no concern for legality of product (in their eyes) or health of product. The animal is a commidity and if more are sold are collected and imported. A classic example of this is in my state it is illegal to sell ornate box turtles, yet they are sold commonly. The excuse is no one told us any different.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

COME ON EVERYBODY.. 50 LOOKS AND 2 REPLIES!?!?

THIS IS CRITICAL.. SAY SOMETHING! WE NEED TO UNITE ON THIS!!!

Terry

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Agreed with Josh on the healthy issues. Of course that is one reason long quarantines are in order.

My question is... what about FARM BRED tortoises? You don't have the whole WC issue... so what are the issues there?

Where do you think pet stores get a large % of their torts?

 

[Jacqui]

Sorry but I think there are times when it is ok to buy from a pet store.

 

[cvalda]

well in my experience with petstores in madison, most get them wild caught and say they're captive bred. but there is one that has RF's that are farm bred. of course, the adults breeders producing the babies are likely wc.

 

[cvalda]

and i agree with jacqui, to an extent because i have gotten petstore torts that i know are not healthy or were not going to be bought, or were going to end up in a beginner's hands and suffer the consequences, so that i could raise them right and bring them to health.

but that's not a "rule", just a case-by-case basis!

 

[RichardA]

I cannot agree with not buying from shops.....I used to work for a large family owned pet store that buys from breeders. So the torts they carry are CB juvies. And most all others around here also buy from wholesalers that buy from breeders. So the whole taking them out of the wild thing is not across the board true.

Now, what I do say is this.

ASK! Simply ask them. And also dont purhase animals that the store is neglecting. If you buy it they will order more. I am also guilty of doing this....lol....."saving" them. Large chain stores have no business carrying these animals if they are not gonna take the time to do it right.

My 2 pennies.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

I cannot agree with not buying from shops.....I used to work for a large family owned pet store that buys from breeders. So the torts they carry are CB juvies. And most all others around here also buy from wholesalers that buy from breeders. So the whole taking them out of the wild thing is not across the board true.

Now, what I do say is this.

ASK! Simply ask them. And also dont purhase animals that the store is neglecting. If you buy it they will order more. I am also guilty of doing this....lol....."saving" them. Large chain stores have no business carrying these animals if they are not gonna take the time to do it right.

My 2 pennies.

Remember everybody.. those 4" RF you see most likely came from the "Farm" in Venezuela.

And RichardA there are always exceptions and extremes.. so I commend 'your' pet store!

Don't get mad at me.. be honest with yourself.. if you're asking for advice instead of giving it - you're a 'newbie'! We all have to start somewhere.

I'm about to make my statement... ( most of it has been said already ).

Terry

 

[Crazy1]

OK, Redfoot NERD you got to give us time to answer. Some of us are still at work.

 

[Nay]

The whole pet store thing bothers me,there are exceptions of course, but for the most part it is all about just moving them out. It is a business and inexperienced people working there will say whatever to just get it sold. I watched 2 baby sulcatas at our neighborhood store,the CUTEST. But the kid who was showing them off said' oh yeah, they can stay in an aguarium. You might need to get a little bigger one sometime in the future. People who come and get info at the pet store on pet that could potentially outlive you,have not done any homework. I walked after those people and quietly told them, that that tortoise is very cute, like a piece of carved ivory, would , if cared for properly,go through the sheetrock in their house. They had no idea. The next week they were both gone.
Another place got in a shipment of large red eared sliders. Those poor torts were full of cutarebras( a type of maggot that will live under the skin, with a little hole for breathing. We removed many of those bugs and at no charge(I was at a vet near the pet store)When asked what would be done if we didn't at least do that, the kids said they would just let them go, the owner wanted to spend no money on these disposable creatures. It is just the amount of, or lack of, education that people get pets.And if they find out how much work goes along with them, these poor critters just get passed along, hopefully to someone on a board like this.
(also my 2 pennies)
Na

 

[JustAnja]

I think there are many mom and pop pet store operations still around today that sell quality animals. I have a friend that manages the herp department at a long standing family owned store in California and they produce most of the tortoises they sell themselves as well as buy from local breeders that they know.

I dont agree with purchasing live animals from large chain pet stores because most are WC and being pawned off as CB animals. They are the ones with total disregard for the animals well being. I will say Petco does have a policy that they will do whatever it takes to try and save a sick animal in their care at no cost before opting to euthanize. Ive seen this first hand when I worked at an Emergency Animal Hospital and we took care of pretty much all of their animals when needed because we would see exotics. Store managers could not opt to euthanize even in severe cases because it was against corporate policy.

I do not agree with breeders demanding high prices when there are others who breed the exact same animals, and their babies look just as nice as breeder A's animals and sell for less than half. Their is an average price for every animal out there and Im sorry but charging 2-3 times that because you *think* your animals are that much better is not always the right thing to do. I see it in dogs, I see it in snakes, I see it in torts and every other animal available in the pet trade today. Just today I was looking at Boston Terrier puppies and Dachshund puppies and people were asking the same amount of money or MORE for a pet registered in a small pet registry (APRI) as breeders breeding AKC registered, show quality stock.


And there is my 2 pennies worth......

 

[Jentortmom]

IMO, Most but NOT all pet stores sell wild caught turtles and tortoises. The animals are ripped out of there natural habitat and then crammed in boxes or bags by the hundreds or thousands and then shipped with no food or water. When they arrive at the distributors The ones that survived and are not crushed or suffocated to death are put in new boxes and shipped out to the different stores all over they united states. When they arrived at the pet stores they are put in inadequate housing with poor food and horrible lighting to sit and suffer until some person comes and purchases them only to be told to place them in a 10 gallon maybe 20 gallon tank, and then they are not fed proper diets and will suffer until they die. I admit four of my turts and torts are from pet shops, 2 were dropped off by previous owner and then I picked them up, the third was given to me because he was sick and they did not want to pay for vet visit, or have it die. The baby sulcata was captive breed by store owner and was given to me because he had a soft shell. The only way I would ever purchase a tort from a pet shop is if I could guarantee it was captive breed. I have seen pictures of russians, greeks, lizards, and other reptiles after they were seized during shipment. The pictures are not pretty and I cried through everyone and those images haunt me everytime I see a tort in a pet store. If anyone ever wants to see those pictures pm me and I will tell you how to get to the site. That is my opionon.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

I think there are many mom and pop pet store operations still around today that sell quality animals. I have a friend that manages the herp department at a long standing family owned store in California and they produce most of the tortoises they sell themselves as well as buy from local breeders that they know.

I dont agree with purchasing live animals from large chain pet stores because most are WC and being pawned off as CB animals. They are the ones with total disregard for the animals well being. I will say Petco does have a policy that they will do whatever it takes to try and save a sick animal in their care at no cost before opting to euthanize. Ive seen this first hand when I worked at an Emergency Animal Hospital and we took care of pretty much all of their animals when needed because we would see exotics. Store managers could not opt to euthanize even in severe cases because it was against corporate policy.

I do not agree with breeders demanding high prices when there are others who breed the exact same animals, and their babies look just as nice as breeder A's animals and sell for less than half. Their is an average price for every animal out there and Im sorry but charging 2-3 times that because you *think* your animals are that much better is not always the right thing to do. I see it in dogs, I see it in snakes, I see it in torts and every other animal available in the pet trade today. Just today I was looking at Boston Terrier puppies and Dachshund puppies and people were asking the same amount of money or MORE for a pet registered in a small pet registry (APRI) as breeders breeding AKC registered, show quality stock.


And there is my 2 pennies worth......

Anja this thread is about "Don't buy from pet stores!.. not which breeder you buy from.

Terry

 

[Redfoot NERD]

OK, Redfoot NERD you got to give us time to answer. Some of us are still at work.

That's the whole idea Robyn.. to get everyone to make their statement - y'all are doing great!

Terry

 

[JustAnja]

I think there are many mom and pop pet store operations still around today that sell quality animals. I have a friend that manages the herp department at a long standing family owned store in California and they produce most of the tortoises they sell themselves as well as buy from local breeders that they know.

I dont agree with purchasing live animals from large chain pet stores because most are WC and being pawned off as CB animals. They are the ones with total disregard for the animals well being. I will say Petco does have a policy that they will do whatever it takes to try and save a sick animal in their care at no cost before opting to euthanize. Ive seen this first hand when I worked at an Emergency Animal Hospital and we took care of pretty much all of their animals when needed because we would see exotics. Store managers could not opt to euthanize even in severe cases because it was against corporate policy.

I do not agree with breeders demanding high prices when there are others who breed the exact same animals, and their babies look just as nice as breeder A's animals and sell for less than half. Their is an average price for every animal out there and Im sorry but charging 2-3 times that because you *think* your animals are that much better is not always the right thing to do. I see it in dogs, I see it in snakes, I see it in torts and every other animal available in the pet trade today. Just today I was looking at Boston Terrier puppies and Dachshund puppies and people were asking the same amount of money or MORE for a pet registered in a small pet registry (APRI) as breeders breeding AKC registered, show quality stock.


And there is my 2 pennies worth......

Anja this thread is about "Don't buy from pet stores!.. not which breeder you buy from.

Terry

Last I checked Terry this was a free board and promoted free thought. I hit on a few different problems that are all related. I am free to say what I feel on this board.

 

[Crazy1]

Ok, I thought about this most of today and this is a long one so here goes and no yelling at me because its so long at least I'm thinking and today that wasn't an easy thing to do. Bad day at work.

I am a tortoise, my name is Clyde. I have lived for the past 25 years wondering around this large scrub covered area grazing at my leisure occasionally saying hi to my neighbors and of course courting a couple of lovely ladies here and there. One day I was kidnapped taken from my home against my will. Shoved into a tiny box that was hot and filled with lots of other tortoises. Some were my neighbors some I didn’t know; we had no food or water. It was so cramped I was stepped on and sat upon by many tortoises. We were in this box a long time. Some of the tortoises were sick. The box began to shift from side to side and up and down. More tortoises got sick. Some died. The smell was terrible. Then the movement of the box stopped. Some giant opened it and the light stung my eyes. But I was taken from the box and placed under hard running water Burr cold. Then I was placed in a small box I could see thru. I tried and tried to walk out of the box but could not. There were others like me there. This box was dry and hot but we got some thing to eat. Dry pellets that didn’t taste very good and some green stuff I had never tasted or smelled before. The group would fight over scraps of food. There was a small water bowl too small to lay in but large enough to get a sip of water from, but it tasted so fowl, a little like the dark box had smelled. At night the lights would go out and it got so cold we would huddle together for warmth but there was none. One by one the others began to get taken away by the giants. One day a Giant came and got me. I was placed in a small dark box and went for a bumpy ride. Then I was taken out and put in another clear box again the air didn’t move. The clear box was small I didn’t have much room to move. It was very cold when the light went out and there was no way to stay warm. The ground is hard to walk on its like quick sand and it moves when I step in it. I hit a hard surface when I tried to dig down to bury myself to keep warm or find a way out. There is no water to sit in or drink. But I get green stuff to eat. Some doesn’t taste good but it is food. My chest feels tight I don’t feel very well. The days roll by the same thing day after day The days are now really hot and I feel way too dry. I really would like a drink. I want to take a walk – I dream of home. These large eyes keep looking in on me. Each day is like the other nothing changes nothing to do, no place to go. I feel worse now. My chest hurts I am having trouble breathing, I don’t feel like eating .All I do is sit in the corner and think of being home.

This is told by a little tort that was taken from his home and sold to a large (bad) pet store chain, then to an unknowing person who was given the wrong care information.

Now I am talking about the Large Pet Store Chains, not the mom and pop ones that buy from breeders or the ones that care for their animals and their are some that do. I'm talking about those large chains that don’t know the husbandry, (diet, what to watch for in a tort. etc.) They don’t even know the breed. They don’t care how many males are placed in a tank to fight or what a fight looks like. Mostly they hire kids (teenagers or young people) to work for them that know nothing about tortoises. Some have never even seen a tort before. They don’t take Torts (reptiles in general) to the vet if they show signs of illness or injury. Large numbers are often housed in small spaces. This, the Tortoise is a commodity. It is an item that has no other value than to make money and if they don’t they are expendable. A vet costs too much or policy said…., so they just let them die a horrible death or they sell them to unknowing people who get the wrong information if they get any at all or a sick tort. Not all people do research to find out how to care for these wonderful creatures. They beleive the Pet Store and again the tort dies a horrible lingering painful death. There aren’t many vets that are knowledgeable in Chelonian care so if they do get vet care it may be the wrong care.

Plus we are just really coming to understand some things about tortoises and turtles. As a lot of us know that got bad advice on husbandry, diet, etc. not so very long ago.

As long as people buy from these stores, no matter if it is to rescue or because you found a loving pet, they will keep selling these animals. They buy them low and sell high, with little expenditure on their care or upkeep.

Don’t get me wrong I bought my first two from a reptile pet shop. But I have since come to understand they knew very little about my torts. They had parasites and RI’s and were kept in pretty bad conditions. And yes I fell in love with them the moment I saw them. I went back and back and back to see them over a two week period before I bought them. I am not sorry I did. I do however realize that not all Pet stores even those that specialize in reptiles know what to do with specific breeds or subspecies of torts. And yes this store just replaced the ones I bought with others. When I went back and spoke to them they pretty much told me I didn't know what I was talking about that they were the experts and they knew how to raise tortoises.

I know that buying from a Reputable breeder gives me correct husbandry, well cared for hatchlings or adults. They are knowledgeable of the breed. The care sheets or information you get is accurate and complete and you have someone to call if you have questions. They usually have an answer or know where to get one. They must keep good healthy stock to bring them $$$ so the tortoises are cared for. Not kidnap from the wild. Perhaps taken illegally and transported to a country that has legal importation and exportation and then renamed to suit the seller thus giving false or bad information on that species or subspecies.

With so much Human encroachment and habitat destruction and exploitation of these creatures we may decimate any species of tortoise in the wild and then our ecosystem suffers. And we but add to the extinction of mankind.

 

[Crazy1]

I dont agree with purchasing live animals from large chain pet stores because most are WC and being pawned off as CB animals. They are the ones with total disregard for the animals well being. I will say Petco does have a policy that they will do whatever it takes to try and save a sick animal in their care at no cost before opting to euthanize.

Anja at my local Petco they have changed their policy recently and I was told they take no Reptile to the vet anymore. When I asked what they do with them if they are sick or injured they told me they take them to the back package them up and then send them back to the supplier. Not good if you’re a sick or injured Reptile. The staff seemed genuinely upset at this new change in policy but they have no recourse if they want to keep their job. I do hope this is in only one store but I doubt it. Petco is a large chain and not a franchise and Policy is usually Global to these chains..