Don't buy torts from pet stores!

[terryo]

So be assured the actual Q? of Why not buy from pet stores? wasn't for me to learn from.. I've experienced virtually every aspect of this hobby/business. I don't really care what anybody thinks. Remember I'm only here for those that want help.. and having said that there will be those that choose to misunderstand or be offended or accuse me of being arrogant, etc., etc. by that statement. So to calm those raging rebellious spirits I better say.. "Of course I'm anxious to learn wherever possible"!

How humble of you Terry!
My oldest box turtle is 50 yrs. +. I have been raising water turtles, and Koi for over 21 years, but I have learned so much since having a computer, and still learning every day.
EVERYONE buys from Pet stores. If I saw a tortoise..turtle..being mistreated in a pet store, I would buy it in a heartbeat, if for no other reason than to try to save it.
Sorry Terry...I still find you very comical.

 

[Crazy1]

Terry, again I say, thanks for the lessons.

 

[Laura]

My 25c worth...(inflation ya know,,,) is regardless if you are a pet store or a breeder, you should always be open to educate, support conservation, and always be willing to help or rescue your species of animal. Wether its a dog or tortoise. If you are a breeder, at least assist in finding a new home if the need arises or take it in from the person and find a new home. And pet stores need to educate people better BEFORE purchase and also take them back if it doenst work out. If not willing or able.. then dont breed/sell.

 

[Redfootedboxturtles]

This thread makes me want to goto the petshop and see what they got. =-))

 

[Redfootedboxturtles]

They had baby sulcatas and green iguanas..... and hatchling snapping and soft shell turtles.

 

[terryo]

Here in NY any baby under 4 in. ...either a tortoise or a turtle of any kind....is illegal. I have been to most all the pets stores here and you never see anything really small. Of course if you know your pet store manager, he will get you anything you want.

 

[cvalda]

They had baby sulcatas and green iguanas..... and hatchling snapping and soft shell turtles.

LOL!!! Nothing you needed, though?

 

[Crazy1]

Terryo there is a Four Inch Turtle Law that is nation wide and states;

The sale or commercial distribution of viable turtle eggs and small turtles (carapace length less than 4 inches) for use as pets is banned under 21 CFR 1240.62. The ban is based on the Public Health Service Act (section 361, 58 Stat. 703) and therefore applies to both intrastate and interstate sale and distribution.

Exceptions to the ban under 21 CFR 1240.62 permit sales of turtles and turtle eggs for use in bona fide scientific, educational, or exhibition purposes other than as pets and of marine (ocean) turtles. Other exceptions to the ban are the sale of turtles and turtle eggs not in connection with a business (e.g., limited sales between turtle fanciers have been permitted) or that are intended for export.

The reason for this ban essentially was:
The ban applies to small turtles (under 4 inch carapace length) because these are most likely to be held for sale as children's pets, and the purpose of the ban is to protect children from turtle-born salmonellosis.

Seems in a lot of states that sell hatchlings they use the educational or scientific law. If you ask they some even have a paper you sign stating such. a lot of large chains still will not carry those under 4 inches. However the law has become loose. Even if you call "Food and Drug Administration Consumer Complaint Coordinators" little or nothing is done at least here in CA.

 

[Redfootedboxturtles]

They had baby sulcatas and green iguanas..... and hatchling snapping and soft shell turtles.

LOL!!! Nothing you needed, though?

I was just thinking to my self. Do they sell anything that doest get Humongous.....

 

[Yvonne G]

Several years ago when Russians were a "new" thing, I went to Southern Calif and visited a wholesale reptile place. They had a huge back lot on black-top. They made several pens on the black-top (+100 degree weather) and in each pen were russian tortoises separated by sex and size. So there were about 2 pens of smaller males, 2 of smaller females, 2 of larger, etc. They were on the blacktop with a little bit of alfalfa hay to hide in. There were about 300 or 400 animals in each pen and there was room in the pen to lay them side-by-side for about 50 animals. So they were all piled up on top of each other. Some dead ones and some very lethargic ones. Poop (runny and black) all over everyone. Flies all over the place. This is a place that sells to pet shops. If you bought 6 you could get them for $10 apiece. If this one wholesaler had these thousands of tortoises at one time, can you imagine how many were taken out of the wild to supply ALL of the wholesalers?

This was my awakening. I've never bought from a pet shop again. And if I visit a pet shop for supplies or food and they have tortoises for sale, I immediately go back home and print out a bunch of care sheets for that type of tortoise and take them back to the pet shop. These are usually received with good grace, and I've seen them pass them out to the buying customers.

There is the school of thought, "If I don't buy him and get him out of this bad environment he might die." "If I don't buy him someone else will, so why not me?" Well, if the tortoise isn't sold, or if he dies, the shop will just replace him with something else that will sell. If he dies, they probably send the carcass back and get a replacement.

If we can convince the turtle-buying public to search out breeders and only buy captive bred tortoises, the law of supply and demand takes over. Pretty soon the pet shops will be forced to buy from breeders too.

Yvonne

 

[gtm]

There are pets shops and pets shops. There's a specialist shop near me thats excellent and there's another one that is revolting. I would happily buy from the former but not the later. This should not be a black and white issue.

 

[Jacqui]

I can see where such a disgusting site could make a permanent and heavy impact on a person, Yvonne. Not something I would want to see.

Of course there are those breeders who only think of them as money and don't give correct care either. Just look at anything else and the same is true, such as dog breeders. Fortunately they are still few, but I think they will increase in numbers as the availability of animals also increases. Most current tortoise folks do it for and with love and caring.

True overall a captive bred from the breeder is best, followed by a captive breed sold by a pet store, last would always be WC. However, as with anything, you need to research just who your getting the animals from.

I personally still refuse to sit back and watch a tortoise suffer and die in a pet store, just to prove a point and perhaps get the store to stop selling them. Then again, I am one of those who stops for torts along the road and takes in any stray animal who comes along.

If it dies and they can get a replacement for it for free, where do the stores learn a lesson? I think if we talk to them and educate the stores (as well as the public) a better lesson is learn without loss of life by the animal.

Maybe with species like redfoots and russians for examples, the loss of life isn't quite as bad as for a species not on stable ground. For some species that loss of an adult animal with breeding possibilities can have an impact.


Yes it takes away from the wild population but is there still a chance for the wild population? Will it if not sold into pet trade, go into the food trade? Will the species be able to maintain itself in the wild or is it's only future lying in the hands of captive breeding programs? Where should captive breeding programs get their stock?

It's a subject with valid points for both sides and some very emotional ones. I think in the end you have to weigh the options and your own values and heart and do what is right for you. Nobody should be downed or made to feel guilty about their choices.

 

[Itort]

Yvonne, the mistreatment of russian tortoises is a classic example. Unfornately your witness is not unique. I have seen this reported and documented in many different locales. One of the larger chains when presented with this evidence just blow it off as not them. I think russians are great torts and deserve better. I encourage anyone interested in any tort to buy from breeders but then again I'm preaching to the choir.

 

[jungleman]

Some shops are good and some are bad......one that I didn't like when I was shopping for a pair of Sulcatas was an independently owned store... the animal environments seemed clean and correct.....................so I'm there with my kids and they want to see the "cute as a button" baby tortoises....................one of the store employees (not a kid, but mid-forties)...grabs a scared little baby Sulcata,.... it was in the typical tortoise guarded body posture with its head retracted and front legs guarding its face............so the employee grinds his finger into the little guy's tail and backside until his head pops out so that we can see how cute he is.....to the little Sulcatas' credit, he urinated all down the front of the employee's pant-leg...........we called it a day....later, I heard from a fellow carpenter that his sister raised lots of reptiles and had some new baby Sulcatas....gave her a call....went to see her....this woman loved her reptiles....had many varieties.....her baby Sulcatas resulted from two 15 year old breeders.....good natural grazing conditions and shelter from the mild Arizona winters....she fed the babies nothing but organic foods...strict low protein diets................THIS is where I bought the two babies which just happen to have turned out to be one male and one female......7 1/2 years later, I've got babies.....................I gave some of them to my kids and after 3 months, sold 15 to a pet shop.....this was also an independent pet shop.....it was big enough to have a separate reptile department with a guy who had been there over three years, managing nothing but reptiles.....he asked me all the right questions...about age, source, the adult parent lineage, diet, care, etc...................................So , in respnse to the intial question, yes, I guess I would buy from a pet shop IF I knew as much about it as I do this one.

 

[terryo]

I would have bought the little mis-treated Sulcata from the pet store, rather than from the breeder. But then again, I am always in trouble from thinking with my heart instead of my head.

 

[Dreamer]

Well, I discussed this with Terry privately, but.......my first RF tort has come via petshop. I just happened to be there when the breeder
brought three yearlings in. The manager from the store let me have mine for his price. Now... for the rest of the story.
He also has a Leopard, a Sulcata,& a Moutain tort all kept in the same aquairum. It is a very lg. one..but all these different
torts with different needs being kept together. I like this guy & we have many discussions on this fact.
BTW the yearling RF torts from this breeder all came in with pyramiding,albeit slight, but none the less there.
Soooo looks like neither in this case, breeder or pet shops, husbandry is up to par.

 

[bettinge]

I feel that the odds of getting a healthy tort/reptile are in your favor when purchased from a breeder. I also think that it is the cheepest option! Vets and drugs are not cheep, and a sick pet will cost much more than shipping in a healthy pet from a breeder. I feel that breeders not only have the knowledge of raising a certain breed, they have a vested interest. They raise torts because they want to, where as pet stores sell torts because they want to make a profit. Not that I feel making a profit is bad, I just think that profit comes before education and health!

 

[shelber10]

Well i would buy from my pet store because most of the torts they sell are hatchlings or yearlings. And the only torts that they have that are wild caught are ussually russian tortoises

 

[tortoisenerd]

I agree that I wouldn't blanket statement pet stores. I got a CB hatchling russian from a pet store that had rave reviews. I would have preferred getting him directly from the breeder, but he was taken care of well at the pet store. I would not however get a wild caught tort from a typical pet store. I made sure to have several personal recommendations of this particular pet store although I did not see it in person (he was shipped). I felt more comfortable with the 1 day stress on the tort of being shipped vs. the stress of being wild caught and the other potential problems that go along with that.