Terry, sometimes I don't like your questions, But I must admit they make me think and I always learn from them. So I personally would like to say thanks from the bottom of my heart for raising questions that make me think even when I don't want to.
Don't buy torts from pet stores!
- Thread starter Redfoot NERD
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This is one crazy thread...
Where do you think your CB animals came from?
Where did every one of us start this hobby?
I can see regulation and such but the arrogance that is projected in this thread is way over the top.
There are good shops and bad but to say they are all bad whether they are a mom and pop or a chain is very wrong.
I have serious connections in the herp industry and I still buy from petstores. It makes no difference to me. The animal is in the trade and it's a done deal.
If you want to make a difference... change legislation but think about what you do before you do it because once it's done... it's very hard to change it back.
Where do you think your CB animals came from?
Where did every one of us start this hobby?
I can see regulation and such but the arrogance that is projected in this thread is way over the top.
There are good shops and bad but to say they are all bad whether they are a mom and pop or a chain is very wrong.
I have serious connections in the herp industry and I still buy from petstores. It makes no difference to me. The animal is in the trade and it's a done deal.
If you want to make a difference... change legislation but think about what you do before you do it because once it's done... it's very hard to change it back.
Crazy1 said:
Thank you for that true to life story.
Robyn you've said what I have planned to say.. and I'll make my statement soon.. as I'm trying to undo the info "out there" and teach what I know about tortoises - G. carbonaria - redfoot tortoises in particular.
I know those that are teachers.. my sister is one.. and they all say that only good teachers know how to ask Q?'s that will inspire and encourage those to think! And then act on the conclusion that best fits the need at hand.
We try...
Terry
Redfoot NERD said:
Are you off your meds????
What is really your point?
Do you have a clue how the pet industry works?
(deep breath)... I'm ok now... not really... this is a thread that was started for... what reason????????
Let me step in here to say that I think this thread was meant to be thought-provoking as opposed to condescending. I can see how this might have been misconstrued but let's not focus on that.
I think we can all agree that taking a wild animal from it's natural habitat is not the best thing to do, especially when there are so many other options with captive breeding.
The gray area is the judgment call each one of us has to make when purchasing a pet. Was the animal raised in a high density farm under unhealthy conditions? Was it taken from the wild? Was it bred and hatched by a small-time breeder?
We should all do our best to be educated on where these animals potentially came from. Ask questions and don't buy until you find someone who has the answers YOU personally are comfortable with.
I think we can all agree that taking a wild animal from it's natural habitat is not the best thing to do, especially when there are so many other options with captive breeding.
The gray area is the judgment call each one of us has to make when purchasing a pet. Was the animal raised in a high density farm under unhealthy conditions? Was it taken from the wild? Was it bred and hatched by a small-time breeder?
We should all do our best to be educated on where these animals potentially came from. Ask questions and don't buy until you find someone who has the answers YOU personally are comfortable with.
Im sure I can guess why this thread was started but I will keep that to myself. I do agree Ed that unless legislation gets changed nothing will change. Supply and demand, its simple as that. How many on here can honestly say they purchased their first tort/turtle/reptile from a pet store? I would bet it would be a large number. Learning should be a constant thing for everyone no matter who you are. I dont know everything about torts, but I know a great deal because I make it a point to do so, just like very other animal I have ever had in my life. I also enjoy trying to help others make good choices in the care of their animals. And you are absolutely right, if the tortoise is already there in the shop it doesnt matter of you purchase it to give it a good life, as long as there is supply and demand there will be another one to replace it next week. I think there should be limits on importation but not an outright ban on it. Look at what Leopard prices have done since they stopped importing them, its insane.
P.S. Don't make me start a debate forum, you guys! 
Let's try to stay positive.
Let's try to stay positive.
josh said:
Back on track... nice diplomacy.
Farmed animals... the redfoots... a beautiful example of controling animals in their native range for production for the pet trade.
Are theyI better or worse than what you can get from a private breeder... it depends on the breeder.
Those that come from farms I suggest that they be treated as wild caught only because of the conditions frm which the come. I dont't see anythin wrong with those conditions. It's like raising bunnies...
I can write a book on this topic... the bottom line... Petshops serve a function. Most (even the chains) are well intentioned. Rants like the original post are from what I call the lunatic fringe.
josh said:
You just made my statement Josh.
We better think a little with our head.. and not let our emotions make our decisions for us. Know what you're getting into and what it takes once you do.. BEFORE making the purchase!
And keep in mind every tort has their own individual needs.
Terry
Too many people are impulse buyers and that is never going to change. Oh look at that cute *insert bunny, puppy, kitten, etc etc* in the window at the pet shop. Some people take puppies home not having a clue how to house train one and get angry when the puppy pees and poops all over the house and blames it on the puppy. Until we can all come together and work to inform pet shops, one and all, with good information about their charges nothing will ever change. This is not likely to happen though because none of the keepers in the herp hobby can ever come together for any reason.
Thank you all for your input.
I trust we all learned from this thread.. with the torts' well being foremost...
Terry
I trust we all learned from this thread.. with the torts' well being foremost...
Terry
I don't know if this is an overall change in company policy or what, but the PetCo near my home has stopped selling torts/most reptiles entirely. Om Nom Nom was the last little tort there. Her former cage now bears a sign stating that they are "re-evaluating what companion animals they carry" or some such.
Fine with me, seeing as how the guy there told me to feed the poor thing dog food (I think this myth might be propogated by old, outdated literature on tortoises. I have an old book that states the same thing.) At least he told us to build a tortoise table instead of buying a tank.
But, anyway, knowing what I know now about torts, I'd definitely be uncomfortable with buying from a large-chain store again.
Fine with me, seeing as how the guy there told me to feed the poor thing dog food (I think this myth might be propogated by old, outdated literature on tortoises. I have an old book that states the same thing.) At least he told us to build a tortoise table instead of buying a tank.
But, anyway, knowing what I know now about torts, I'd definitely be uncomfortable with buying from a large-chain store again.
About twenty years ago I worked in a small family owned petshop. We found that the money was not in the animal but in the supplies. Well about that time the large pet supply stores began to emerge. Their corporate statement was we will not sell animals but just supplies. They decried the abuse of the animals in classic shops and vowed they would not follow that course. Well, in short time, they begain carrying fish, then birds, then small animals, then herps, and now adoptable dogs and cats. All this leads to selling more pet supplies. Also along the way care info was overlooked. In my opinion if you wish to deal with a pet shop, deal a good mom and pop store. I have found that they are more receptive to specific advice and help. I have found that the term hypocrite applies to the chains very well. Bye the bye my local independent doesn't own a MLB stadium.
Before since I really didn't have the time to give thought to a long post stating why I felt buying from a pet store can be the right thing to do, I just stated my opinion. Now for the reasons behind them.
First I hate being a hypocrite. Where do you think my first animals came from? I have also noticed many other people who are very active turtle/tort breeders and care takers got their first animal(s) from pet stores. I also include the famous dime store RES as coming from pet stores.
How many of the current CBs that are currently for sale came from CB parents? The majority are from either WC adults or farmed situations (which is kinda between the two). Some species of course have an advantage in this area, because they breed more readily or have had more time in captivity. If I recall correctly, Danny has the great pleasure of second generation torts.
If there is an animal sitting in a pet store that would be a good addition to a breeding colony why would I ignore it? The animal is already out of the wild, it can't go back. So should those genes be forever lost? To me it's better if let's say you come across a large adult female Russian, to get her into a breeding group. To add her to the number of possible females producing hatchlings that might lead to enough CBs that WC are no longer needed.
Yes I think we need to not be taking all we can from the wild, but let's look at another side of that issue. Often these are poor countries. The money they get from selling their native animals puts food on the table, clothes on the bodies. Is it better for them to be bought by people to keep as pets and breeding stock or sold to countries to put into the stew pot? If there is no money coming in from these sales and no other ways to make an income, do you think these folks will starve themselves or will they also start eating these animals?
I think everybody knows my first love are the Hingebacks. As a whole, we have made giant steps in keeping them and in getting some hatchlings. However there are very few CBs. People wanting to raise these guys have to start with WCs. The pool of genetic material is also very limited. Looking way to the future, we could have problems resulting from that.
Chances are poor that many species will remain viable in the wild. Habitat destruction; segments becoming isolated; human, their animals, other wild animals moving into their territories, encroachments of all kinds; lack of knowledge, and often general lack of caring are just a few ways they are losing habitat faster than we can stop it. Should we sit back and let them disappear? Or should we take from the wild into captive programs and hope to save them? Perhaps someday they can be returned with captive animals, perhaps they will forever be lost in the wild, and perhaps only in captivity will they have a chance.
I like to buy my animals after seeing them, holding them, and examining them. Often breeders sell thru the internet, ect.., You are buying sight unseen from an unknown person. Shipping animals can be a nightmare and not all folks are lucky to live near breeders. Much easier to buy from a local pet store.
Not all impulse buying is bad and it can still be an impulse buy at times from a breeder, too. For example I see Redfoot Nerd's (sp?) cute hatchlings and immediately send off the money. Did I think that thru or did I just fall for a colorful sweet face? (and no I didn't get one...lol). You may see a Russian at a store and impulsively buy it, but does that mean you won't research it's needs? Won't do what is right for it? It's not the impulsiveness that is bad, it's how you then follow thru with it.
I think buying sick animals can be a good thing. It's a last chance for these animals. Is it better to let them suffer and die? The same is true for defective or otherwise not physically attractive or "perfect" looking enough for today's society.
Yes pet stores can be bad, but then are breeders always wonderful folks? How many of you actually did a surprise walk thru of your breeders? Does he/she actually take animals to the vet? Is he/she really feeding the good stuff he/she says he/she is? Are those really his/her adults he/she shows shots of? How many breeders give bad advice? How many breeders are only concerned about the bottom line?
True often pet stores are giving inadequate care, but look at how many different views there are out there on proper care. My personal experience has been my local pet stores are very open to ideas and suggestions. They want to learn. Just like everything else, there are places that don't care. With them all you can do is to keep trying.
Both pet stores and breeders can be bad. Both cases for and against taking WC are valid. Life is full of these types of situations. It's up to each of us to judge for ourselves and to judge each situation on it's own merits.
First I hate being a hypocrite. Where do you think my first animals came from? I have also noticed many other people who are very active turtle/tort breeders and care takers got their first animal(s) from pet stores. I also include the famous dime store RES as coming from pet stores.
How many of the current CBs that are currently for sale came from CB parents? The majority are from either WC adults or farmed situations (which is kinda between the two). Some species of course have an advantage in this area, because they breed more readily or have had more time in captivity. If I recall correctly, Danny has the great pleasure of second generation torts.
If there is an animal sitting in a pet store that would be a good addition to a breeding colony why would I ignore it? The animal is already out of the wild, it can't go back. So should those genes be forever lost? To me it's better if let's say you come across a large adult female Russian, to get her into a breeding group. To add her to the number of possible females producing hatchlings that might lead to enough CBs that WC are no longer needed.
Yes I think we need to not be taking all we can from the wild, but let's look at another side of that issue. Often these are poor countries. The money they get from selling their native animals puts food on the table, clothes on the bodies. Is it better for them to be bought by people to keep as pets and breeding stock or sold to countries to put into the stew pot? If there is no money coming in from these sales and no other ways to make an income, do you think these folks will starve themselves or will they also start eating these animals?
I think everybody knows my first love are the Hingebacks. As a whole, we have made giant steps in keeping them and in getting some hatchlings. However there are very few CBs. People wanting to raise these guys have to start with WCs. The pool of genetic material is also very limited. Looking way to the future, we could have problems resulting from that.
Chances are poor that many species will remain viable in the wild. Habitat destruction; segments becoming isolated; human, their animals, other wild animals moving into their territories, encroachments of all kinds; lack of knowledge, and often general lack of caring are just a few ways they are losing habitat faster than we can stop it. Should we sit back and let them disappear? Or should we take from the wild into captive programs and hope to save them? Perhaps someday they can be returned with captive animals, perhaps they will forever be lost in the wild, and perhaps only in captivity will they have a chance.
I like to buy my animals after seeing them, holding them, and examining them. Often breeders sell thru the internet, ect.., You are buying sight unseen from an unknown person. Shipping animals can be a nightmare and not all folks are lucky to live near breeders. Much easier to buy from a local pet store.
Not all impulse buying is bad and it can still be an impulse buy at times from a breeder, too. For example I see Redfoot Nerd's (sp?) cute hatchlings and immediately send off the money. Did I think that thru or did I just fall for a colorful sweet face? (and no I didn't get one...lol). You may see a Russian at a store and impulsively buy it, but does that mean you won't research it's needs? Won't do what is right for it? It's not the impulsiveness that is bad, it's how you then follow thru with it.
I think buying sick animals can be a good thing. It's a last chance for these animals. Is it better to let them suffer and die? The same is true for defective or otherwise not physically attractive or "perfect" looking enough for today's society.
Yes pet stores can be bad, but then are breeders always wonderful folks? How many of you actually did a surprise walk thru of your breeders? Does he/she actually take animals to the vet? Is he/she really feeding the good stuff he/she says he/she is? Are those really his/her adults he/she shows shots of? How many breeders give bad advice? How many breeders are only concerned about the bottom line?
True often pet stores are giving inadequate care, but look at how many different views there are out there on proper care. My personal experience has been my local pet stores are very open to ideas and suggestions. They want to learn. Just like everything else, there are places that don't care. With them all you can do is to keep trying.
Both pet stores and breeders can be bad. Both cases for and against taking WC are valid. Life is full of these types of situations. It's up to each of us to judge for ourselves and to judge each situation on it's own merits.
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