Eastern/Western Box Turtle Hybrids

[turtlemann2]

Alright, a recent thread has had me thinking about hybrid box turtles. Western Box turtles are composed of the Desert box and the Ornate (also known as western) Box Turtle, while the Eastern Box is comprised of the Eastern, Three Toed, Gulf Coast and Florida Box Turtle. The Western and Eastern Boxies are differant species within the same genus, whom can breed and produce offspring. My Question is, are these hybrids fertile? Similer to that of the Horse/Donky cross which produces a sterile Mule. Do you guys have any ideas on if the offspring is viable? Simply for my ponderings sake.

 

[pryncesssc]

If I remember correctly the donkey and horse have slightly different number of chromosomes so when their offspring is forming and going through meiosis the gametes do not correctly form and they are sterile but for all of their body formations (mitosis) the number of chromosomes does not affect it and they are ok otherwise.. so I guess you would have to find out if all the sub sp of boxies have the same chromosome number ...

 

[turtlemann2]

Interesting...

PS somebody was paying attention in Biology! lol my Bot classes at OSU had over 600 students in a single lecture hall!

 

[pryncesssc]

Haha bio is my major so I guess I should at least remember something

 

[turtlemann2]

LOL i had a fisheries major

 

[kimber_lee_314]

As I understand it - they are not actually hybrids. Hybrids occur when animals of the same species mate. When subspecies mate, the offspring is considered an intergrade.

I also found this:

HYBRID: an organism that is the offspring of genetically dissimilar parents or stock; especially offspring produced by breeding plants or animals of different varieties or breeds or species; "a mule is a hybrid of a horse and a donkey" - so in pythons a hybrid would be a woma x carpet or similair

INTEGRADE: An animal which shows the mixed characteristics of two subspecies at the border of both their ranges - My understanding is that this is naturally occuring. For example, at the border of diamond python/coastal carpet habitat, intergrades can occur because diamond pythons and coastal carpets are subspecies of the same species (Morelia spilota)

 

[jojodesca]

I do know that the LIGER a cross between a lion and tiger are born Sterile.....maybe its just one of those things thats not meant to happen

 

[turtlemann2]

well i was asking because it was my understanding that crosses between differant sub sp of the same sp produce viable young while those of the same genus by differant sp produce sterale young, but still close enough to mate.

ive seen hybrids before but have never heard of any procreating

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

If I remember correctly the donkey and horse have slightly different number of chromosomes so when their offspring is forming and going through meiosis the gametes do not correctly form and they are sterile but for all of their body formations (mitosis) the number of chromosomes does not affect it and they are ok otherwise.. so I guess you would have to find out if all the sub sp of boxies have the same chromosome number ...

 

[pryncesssc]

I do know that the LIGER a cross between a lion and tiger are born Sterile.....maybe its just one of those things thats not meant to happen

Ligers only exist because scientists made them lol they would NEVER meet in the wild cause they are from different continents .



Haha did you quote my whole quote geo Terra ?

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

Haha did you quote my whole quote geo Terra ?

Oh, man. This thing is driving me nuts. Not only did I write a long reply that failed to upload, but I couldn't even write anything. Hopefully that has changed now.

Anyway, as I mentioned, my friend did keep a male three-toed boxie together with a female ornate boxie for many years, but they never mated. However, this was probably because he did not allow them to brumate (hibernate), since turtles that don't hibernate appear to be less likely to breed. If they were to mate, I think hybrid offspring would be produced, but I don't know if they would be fully fertile or not.

Fertility in turtles is not really well understood. In captivity, people have reported redfoots hybridizing with yellowfoots, and Russians hybridizing with Hermanns. Both of these mixes produced healthy offspring, but it's not known whether or not they were fully fertile.

Reduced fertility appears to be due to a misalignment of genes on the chromosomes, although not necessarily chromosome count. True, donkeys have only 62 chromosomes to a domestic horse's 64, and mules, which have the odd number of 63 chromosomes are indeed sterile. However, wild Przewalski horses have 66 chromosomes, and can form fully fertile intraspecific hybrids with domestic horses. This is probably because the increased chromosome count of wild horses was due to a fairly recent Robertsonian translocation, in which one large chromosome became two smaller ones. Other than this difference, wild and domestic horses still have good gene loci alignment, and so their offspring are fertile, even though they have the odd number of 65 chromosomes.

In contrast, wolves and coyotes both have 78 chromosomes, and yet their interspecific hybrid offspring tend to have reduced fertility. Again, this is probably due to misalignment of the actual gene loci on the chromosomes.

At any rate, all species in the genus Terrapene have 50 chromosomes, but I don't know how well their genes line up, so although I suspect they could form healthy interspecific hybrid offspring, I don't know whether they would have reduced fertility or not.

The term "hybridization" can refer to any mixture of genes. For example, you could allow a single strand of DNA to bind with another single strand of DNA from another source, and the resulting double-stranded helix would still be called a "hybrid." Intergradation does occur when two subspecies form intermediate offspring where their two ranges overlap. However, this is simply a form of intraspecific hybridization, as opposed to interspecific or intergeneric hybridization.

 

[Saloli]

Ligers only exist because scientists made them lol they would NEVER meet in the wild cause they are from different continents .

Haha did you quote my whole quote geo Terra ?

That is not entirely true lions occur in Asia with tigers though the lion are in even worst condition then the tigers they are extinct in n. a. , Europe and most of their former Asian range. So in theory ligers could occur in the wild. As for intergrades which occur where subspecies ranges meet they are not the same as an intraspecies hybrid which is a cross between subspecies that don't normally meet for example say hypothetically T. c. carolina were to mate with a T. c. mexicana in captivity. Their offspring would be an intraspecies (with in species) hybrid.

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

That is not entirely true lions occur in Asia with tigers though the lion are in even worst condition then the tigers they are extinct in n. a. , Europe and most of their former Asian range. So in theory ligers could occur in the wild.

Even when both lions and tigers were abundant in Eurasia, they still would have been unlikely to encounter each other because they occupy different habitats. The lion is a grassland animal, while the tiger is a woodland animal, so even in the same country, the two cats would not encounter one another in the wild.

 

[turtlemann2]

Well it is possible and not outside the relm of possibility, even though they occcupy differant habitats. Take for examlpe the Ornate Box turtle whom like the lion in inhabits the grasslands and prairies. Now look at the Three Toed Box turtle whom like the Tiger inhabits the forested areas. Chance matings do occur just less often.

BUT seeing as the eurasian lion is extinct there wont be any hybrids found in nature anytime soon

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

Well it is possible and not outside the relm of possibility, even though they occcupy differant habitats. Take for examlpe the Ornate Box turtle whom like the lion in inhabits the grasslands and prairies. Now look at the Three Toed Box turtle whom like the Tiger inhabits the forested areas. Chance matings do occur just less often.

BUT seeing as the eurasian lion is extinct there wont be any hybrids found in nature anytime soon

Are there T. carolina x T. ornata hybrids in nature?

 

[turtlemann2]

Well it is possible and not outside the relm of possibility, even though they occcupy differant habitats. Take for examlpe the Ornate Box turtle whom like the lion in inhabits the grasslands and prairies. Now look at the Three Toed Box turtle whom like the Tiger inhabits the forested areas. Chance matings do occur just less often.

BUT seeing as the eurasian lion is extinct there wont be any hybrids found in nature anytime soon

Are there T. carolina x T. ornata hybrids in nature?

No T carolina carolina x T ornata, but indeed there are T carolina trigus x T ornata crosses in nature. i think your very long and in depth responce above hits the nail on its head! 2nd generation hybrids havnt really been documented first generation showing characteristics of both t ornata and t c tringus are prevelent especially in the overlapping range. I belive your explination on the alignment of chromazomes is the most likly suspect in the possible not fertile offspring

 

[MikeCow1]

I have a hybrid male box that I adopted from Walter Allen, back in the day. They thought he was possibly a cross between a three-toed and an ornate . He seems to be pretty fertile as my female lays eggs every year.
The male hybrid

All the offpring with the three-toed female, so far, have looked like this.

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

Scott:
Whoa ... there are three-toed x ornate hybrids in the Midwest?! Amazing!

Mike:
Okay, so perhaps you do have a fertile three-toed x ornate hybrid. But it sounds like you are not certain as to whether he is a hybrid or not?

 

[MikeCow1]

He's certainly some kind of cross between two different kinds of boxies.

 

[turtlemann2]

I have a hybrid male box that I adopted from Walter Allen, back in the day. They thought he was possibly a cross between a three-toed and an ornate . He seems to be pretty fertile as my female lays eggs every year.
The male hybrid

All the offpring with the three-toed female, so far, have looked like this.

INTERESTING! so the father is a cross but shows predominatly TT traits, while his young show the ornate traits! this coudl be an entire resesive/dominant trait thread!