Eggs Fertile or Not?? Verdict please.

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Tortoise

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HI
These eggs were laid by my female on March 19th.
I took photos tonight but to be honest there was a very slight odour.
I assume this is a negative sign although these are my 1st tortoise eggs so not sure what is normal yet.:rolleyes:

They have been kept at 79 for a planned diapause thus far so we are almost at 4 weeks.
(There is quite a difference between the two eggs, they were laid at the same time.)
There are very fine lines running along the eggs too-could they be cracks?There is a horizontal line on one egg too.
There are some dark pencil lines on tops of the two eggs.
Any opinions appreciated
Thanks
Louise


Egg 1
Egg1
Egg1
Egg1
Egg2
Egg2
Egg2
 

african cake queen

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hi, it was nice to hear from you. to me , the eggs look good. they needs more time. they dont look brownish . if they smell. they smell. leave them. when i had a rotted egg, it smelled so freaking bad. so wait a couple more weeks and bet you see veins! my male never bites my female . he is always with her WATCHING HER. NO EGGS YET. IHOP IS DOING WEEL. HAVE VIDEOS, NEED TO FIND OUT HOW TO GET THEN OFF MY PHONE. if you need anything you can always email me. keep me posted. lindy
 

Tom

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My opinion: Incubate them anyway. Don't worry about what you do or don't see. Just incubate them. If they really go rotten, you will know. Too much water can cause them to swell up and crack. Make sure you have adequate humidity, but not wetness.

Never heard of a 79 degree diapause breaker. Is that a pancake thing? Usually they have to be kept much cooler than that, like for Gpp or platynota.
 

african cake queen

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Tom said:
My opinion: Incubate them anyway. Don't worry about what you do or don't see. Just incubate them. If they really go rotten, you will know. Too much water can cause them to swell up and crack. Make sure you have adequate humidity, but not wetness.

Never heard of a 79 degree diapause breaker. Is that a pancake thing? Usually they have to be kept much cooler than that, like for Gpp or platynota.

gee, i put the last egg(ihop) in the incubator right away at 84ish degrees. after trying everything with no luck, i figured , lets see what happens.i kept moist paper towels in the corners of the zoo med inc. and 4 mos. later,,,,a real shocker! veins. i also turned heat up to 86 and near the end made it more humid. not saying to do this, just saying this is what i did. this was my 7th try. anyway, keep those eggs going. ps. tom is right too much wetness , will rot the eggs. good luck.
 

Tortoise

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Hi Thanks Momo and Tom
So should I stop the diapause already?I have read anything from 4 weeks til 8 weeks for time period of diapause.I'm at 4 weeks on Tuesday.
I can start to creep up the temps??

I may have had them too wet for the 1st 4 days in incubator-the humidity was up to 90% then I removed the wet perlite and placed them on dry perlite and since then the humidity is around 80%

I really have no idea what is best with the eggs but I'm not giving up on them-its only really egg 2 that smells a bit. There is horizontal lines on both eggs could be cracks?? Not sure.No leaking though.

Kelly has done the diapause thing too and had success-I read about it in an article that mentioned more success this way than the normal way.
 

Tom

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I don't even keep pancakes at the moment so I'm no expert, I just have not heard they needed a diapause breaking cooling period. Its good info to know. I will PM a couple of pancake breeders I know and see what they have to say.
 

CourtneyG

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Move it up to 80F to see if that helps, and also as one person put it with the eggs and waiting to see of they are bad "wait until the flies carry them away"
 

EricIvins

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Personally, you are playing with them too much. Leave them be and see what happens. 79 Degrees really isn't a "diapause". I drop them to 68 degrees for 3 weeks and bring them back up to normal incubating temperatures. The Eggs that are going to do well will immediately start progressing. With that said - There are many people who hatch Pancakes out with no diapause. I've seen Eggs go as long as 10 months to finally hatch. It isn't as simple as everyone thinks. I have a theory that incubation methods/times depend on what time of the year the Female cycles, and whether or not the Eggs have a genetic or hormonal predisposition for a diapause period. It all comes down to what works for the individual animals in their individual situations. This usually takes years to figure out..... Not what someone in California published on the internet that works for them and their captive situations.......
 

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Tortoise

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Hi Eric
Thanks for the input, I wish I had heard your comments a few weeks back.
These are my very first tortoise eggs.
All I could do was research online-there wasn't much to go on to be honest.
There are few if any books on the Pancake tortoises too so I read this article and others too and was given some personal experiences on this forum(thankfully) and took a chance on this method.
I didn't realise you could drop the temperature that much.(good to know)

So should I be raising the temperature every few days now up to normal incubation temperatures-where would you aim for-86/87??

What do you think to the eggs from their appearance?

Thanks Eric
Louise
 

Kapidolo Farms

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When I had a well producing large colony of pancakes at the Philly Zoo, no diapause was used and near all the eggs hatched. I don't have the numbers, but 75% would be a conservative recollection.

I searched the enclosures once a week minimum, sometime more if I thought a female was in the egg laying mode. They were incubated at 86 to 87F in a hovabator in a room where temps stayed constant enough that high/low thermometers never registered a temp in the incubator higher or lower than 86 or 87F.

The hatchlings sex is also not a recall I have, but on the diapause idea, at best the eggs went undiscovered and had fluctuating temps for a week. The room temp was stable and bounced from a low of 72 to high of 78 as an ambient several meters away from the actual enclosures and incubator. The room had been set up for mice reproduction and that is an ideal temp for them. Then it was used for quarantine during a reptile house renovation, and lastly for the pancake colonies.

So where did this 'need' for diapause come from?

It is likely/sure that the colony founders came from the more northern part of the range, Kenya. Maybe there is some trend for diapause based on latitude, most now come from the southern part of the range. Thoughts?

Many in-situ eggs are laid where the adults hide, what's the hallmark of the hides (?) stable temps (!).

Will


And to your question Louise, I agree, don't fool with the eggs 'till they hatch or explode. Touching them yields no benefit for the egg.

Will
 

EKLC

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That part of Africa can be subtropical in climate due to the elevation. Nairobi is a mile-high city. So pancakes, at least in some parts of their range are waking up to chilly mornings. Not sure what that means for diapause
 

Kapidolo Farms

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Your PM box is full, here is my reply...

Hi,

The male, I house one male with more than one female, so his attention can not be so focused. I think finding 1.1 in the wild means that male is focused, and will chase that female down anytime she ventures out for food. I don't think they are 'buddies'. I feed mine 6 days a week, and fast one day, that way when the females are out looking for food the males gets his day of focus. If the female has many hide opportunities that is good, but if the males 'hounds' her all the time she will stress. Give her some 'days off' from him.

For incubation I used a dry incubator, no open water, the vermiculite was the small grain, so more points of contact with the egg than large grain, slightly less air exposure than the large grain (just "what" and significance, not a recommendation). It was mixed 1:1 with distilled water, and no extra added throughout. Each egg was in its own small plastic tub in the hovabator, so when new eggs were added that may have effected the ambient humidity for all eggs. Each small plastic container had a few holes for air exchange. I used a high/low thermometer to track the temp, but no humidity gauge.

I think there may be a difference between northern and southern pancakes, more than the change in relative male size. Males in the northern populations tend to get bigger than females, while in the southern range they are smaller. So maybe the diapause is needed for some southern adaptation to conditions, it is further from the equator.

Populations of turtles with large north/south distributions sometimes show this kind of differences among their populations (different egg laying strategies).

As for what ZooMed is doing, I don't know what to tell you, there is no sales advantage to what they have found/reproted so it seems credible. I was hoping someone else might chime in with what they thought on that topic.

Don't fuss with eggs, just don't. I would let the humidity come down to 40 to 60%, then warm the incubator up to 86F, both can be managed at the same time it does not have to be done incrementally.

Eggs and osmosis. You know those experiments we did in High School science classes where the pure water would cross the barrier even "uphill" into a high sugar content water. The sugar molecules were to big to cross the barrier, but 'osmotic' pressure 'made' the water cross the barrier. That is what happens to most chelonain eggs, they suck up water. So water/humidity management is important. That is why people tend to incubate on the dry side with occasional misting. To much water and the egg will suck it up, sometimes explode, but most of the time just overwhelm the system of life inside the egg with to much pressure, as that osmotic 'balance' will keep sucking up water past need.

Box turtle eggs are an exception, but pancakes eggs are not. Leathery shell eggs are more forgiving to too much water, much more so than hard shell eggs.

Will
 

Tortoise

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Thanks Will
(I cleared my inbox.)
Thanks for the detailed response,I always learn new things from your posts.
(Sounds like your High school classes were much more interesting than my equivalent in the UK!!)

Hoping to add more females in time as money allows.
I'll keep a close eye on the male although they are in a bigger pen now and even more sight barriers and options to hide than before.

thanks
Louise
 
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