Enclosure size questions

[counting]

I have some questions about enclosure size!

So in the pinned care sheet, it reccomends a minimum enclosure size of 18 square feet. Members of the forum often cite a minimum enclosure size of 32 square feet- that's 14 square feet larger!! Nearing double the floor space.
I've also read things like 2×3 (6 ft) 3×4(12 ft) and 4x4 (16 ft). But I'll focus on the two most generous recommendations.

So first:
Why is the pinned care sheet(where most new keepers are likely look for information) so much different than the size cited by members on the same forum?

Second: what is the basis for either dimensions given? I know that tortoises typically cover a large territory- so is square footage based on actual studies on territory size (ie. In the wild they maintain a home territory averaging 18-35 square feet, perhaps venturing further to forage)

Is it based on the observations of how much space the average tortoise needs in order to avoid neurotic behaviours such as pacing ( in which case I feel like the discrepancy in reccomended size should not be so great)

OR the size needed to maintain a difference in temperature from one side to the other ( again if that's the case wouldn't it depend on the kind of enclosure and length more than square footage)

Something I'm not considering. I assume it isn't arbitrary.

For what it's worth not trying to stir up conflict, just looking to understand all I can. I also can't be the only person who wonders where the numbers come from and why they vary so much.

I also know larger is always better, and I plan on going on that perspective when I build an enclosure. But I would like to know the reasoning behind the reccomendations so I can know of I'm being generous enough.

 

[JoesMum]

Which pinned sheet and what species of tortoise are we talking about?

 

[JoesMum]

Ah, I just realised we're talking Greeks. That sheet is written by @HermanniChris

I believe those measurements are for younger torts. Even 4'x8' would be too small for my mature male Greek. We've had him for over 45 years.

Each of us posts from our own experience. There is no hard and fast rule, but as you said 'bigger is better'

 

[counting]

Ah, I just realised we're talking Greeks. That sheet is written by @HermanniChris

I believe those measurements are for younger torts. Even 4'x8' would be too small for my mature male Greek. We've had him for over 45 years.

Each of us posts from our own experience. There is no hard and fast rule, but as you said 'bigger is better'

The sheet actually says that size(3x6) is for an adult or pair of adults.

I plan on building something custom and really large when the time comes.

That being said, I am curious about where the recommendations come from.
For your greek, is it a matter of your tort not being able to move around properly in an enclosure of that size, having neurotic behavior in something 32 square feet or less, or what?.

Thanks for the reply!

 

[Tom]

It absolutely is "arbitrary". It is just personal opinion based on what works, personal preference, personal experience and feelings. There is no scientific study that I've ever seen that determines what happens, or doesn't happen at various cage sizes.

I've frequently replied to posts on enclosure size that a 150 pound sulcata isn;t going to instantly drop dead when placed into a 10x10' basement enclosure for winter, but knowing what I know, that is too small for a tortoise that size to be housed in for months at a time.

Like horses, tortoises use locomotion to help improve gut motility and keep things moving through the GI tract. The smaller the enclosure gets, the less room their is for this. Over time, this can, and does, cause problems.

I arrived at the 4x8' recommendation because is it pretty easy for most people to get a 4x8' sheet of plywood from the hardware store and make an enclosure out of that. Also, if you need something larger than that, you basically have to convert an entire room to the tortoise, or if your climate allows it, move the tortoise outside full time.

I love the question. These discussions are welcome and a good way to clarify some of the common assertions the we all make and explain why we make them.

 

[JoesMum]

Our Greek, when he's not hibernating, has the run of our garden. He's outdoors 24/7 the rest of the time.

We had to keep him in one winter due to sickness and it was very stressful. We surrendered our dining room to him - roughly 15' square - and his pacing the boundaries was awful.

In the wild these tortoises roam huge distances and they want to in captivity too.

There is some evidence to suggest that a tort that has an enclosure that's "big enough" will be content with it until exposed to something bigger. Returning it to the smaller enclosure then becomes difficult. We see that on TFO with torts brought indoors for the winter that are not happy to accept a table that they previously lived in happily.

 

[Markw84]

So much is personal experience and it is a debatable topic. There are no hard and fast rules. I therefore, like to go by what experienced keepers - who have had several experiences with the particular species, have found works best and is producing the best results. It is tempting to plug in a simple number based upon limited experience, but I do see variations in the way different species act in their enclosures.

I believe it is a matter of giving the tortoise enough room so you will see it moving around more naturally, getting exercise and working the limbs, stimulating the GI tract, etc, etc. An interesting enclosure with sight barriers and plants/cover for hides helps as well as size. When you see a tortoise that with temp & humidity proper, yet still just sits and never explores the enclosure, I think enclosure size needs to be looked at.

I personally use 3 x 8 enclosures and feel I get great results. That is for stars, leopards and sulcatas until they are about 8". They do get outside time daily, weather permitting. I use 3' width simply because I can reach into stacked enclosures of that size and still grab a tortoise at the back easily. I see my tortoises exploring the enclosure vigorously several times a day at that size, and really like the activity level. I have smaller 3 x 5 enclosures for hatchlings and I see if I leave tortoises in there once they get larger than about 5", they stop moving around as much, and I feel the size is restricting them. I also do keep groups of 3-5 in my enclosures, so that is a consideration. However, I have found no difference in behavior with 1 vs 5 tortoises in enclosures that size.

I have not kept Testudo species, so cannot comment on those directly. I would look to those successful and see what type activity and behaviors different sizes produce. From what I read here, it seems they like room to roam.

As always, bigger is better. I would not go smaller than the sizes I have mentioned.

 

[counting]

Thanks I love the different perspectives here!

 

[Yvonne G]

I would look to the source. HermanniChris has kept and raised successfully many, many Greek tortoises. So I wouldn't hesitate to take his advice.

We each have our own likes and dislikes. What works for one might not work for another.

 

[KevinGG]

I've read that the range of Russians is around 2 miles. I don't know the Greek range, but I imagine it is very large. We can't emulate the size of natural habitats. Recommendations on care sheets are based only on experience. The only definitive rule with adults is to provide the largest, safest enclosure possible. No need to stick to arbitrary guidelines.

 

[Souptugo]

I think quality is as important as size. You could have a 5' by 10' enclosure that is bare and no plants or hiding spots and it can be miserable for your tortoise. I live in a condo so I try to make up for my 3 by 5 enclosure with plants and shade etc... my guy is 10 cm. if it was up to me he'd have a whole room!

 

[counting]

I've asked here about enrichment before and I wonder if that does make a difference...ie. having to forage food, push around a ball to knock it out, etc can promote exercise and enrichment even in a smaller area. So on rhat note does a large area really help prevent neurotic behaviours like pacing, or is enrichment more valuable for that?

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

I use a whole different metric based on many things.

When I am acclimating an animal from a dealer (wild caught or origin unknown to me) I like to use a 2 x 3 enclosure for tortoises up at least 2 kilos or about five pounds, one per enclosure. That seems way to small and after acclimation it is. However when a tortoise is acclimating to some extent it has just had all awareness of surrounding taken way, it doesn't know where anything is (tortoises map their world). Water shelter and food are all within a few steps and can be observed from shelter. This also makes it easy to see if the tortoise ate, drank, or pooped. Later when they are no longer showing any 'doubt' about life and move about they will go to a larger enclosure. I house a great many tortoises as singles. Singles this size seem to do well in a 2 x 4 footprint.

If it's a breeder bought hatchling then I follow whatever the breeder has done.

If its a grouped animal, like say pancakes, I think the 2 x 3 is okay for an individual or pair, and then 1 to 2 square feet for each additional tortoise. So a 1.3 group can be house in a 2 x 4 or a 2 x 6 enclosure.

 

[Kaliman1962]

Ah, I just realised we're talking Greeks. That sheet is written by @HermanniChris

I believe those measurements are for younger torts. Even 4'x8' would be too small for my mature male Greek. We've had him for over 45 years.

Each of us posts from our own experience. There is no hard and fast rule, but as you said 'bigger is better'

just curious, how big is your greek & how much does he weigh? i have an Ibera, only 5 month old but growing, i'm at 108 grams lol

 

[JoesMum]

just curious, how big is your greek & how much does he weigh? i have an Ibera, only 5 month old but growing, i'm at 108 grams lol

He weighs 3.2kg/7lb and is just over 26cm/10" straight carapace length. He stopped growing around 15 years ago