Enclosure temps, but food question

[Mr Buster]

Room stats: 76.5F 44%
Back pen on peat moss = 79.7F 63%
Front pen on play sand = 100.4F 27%

Daily routine is 30 min soak each morning, then he basks on the sand and eventually borrows in it. He has romain, parsley, and cilantro in his dish every morning and there is timothy hay, mazuri, and cutttle bone always available.

He has not eaten in 4 days since I took the peas away. This morning I put peas again and he sifted through all the food ate the peas and headed for the basking light.

how do I get this kid to eat anything but peas ? In addition to the protein in peas others have warned me about, I am also worried about parasite infestation.

 

[JoesMum]

Room stats: 76.5F 44%
Back pen on peat moss = 79.7F 63%
Front pen on play sand = 100.4F 27%

Daily routine is 30 min soak each morning, then he basks on the sand and eventually borrows in it. He has romain, parsley, and cilantro in his dish every morning and there is timothy hay, mazuri, and cutttle bone always available.

He has not eaten in 4 days since I took the peas away. This morning I put peas again and he sifted through all the food ate the peas and headed for the basking light.

how do I get this kid to eat anything but peas ? In addition to the protein in peas others have warned me about, I am also worried about parasite infestation.

You don't feed peas. It's very simple. He can hold out for 2 weeks and more without eating and come to no harm if soaked and will give in when hungry. You have to hold out too.

You have to be like the parent of a child that only wants to eat chips and chocolate . Be tough and stay strong

 

[Mr Buster]

Who edited my OP title ?

Anyway, I am trying to find out if Buster prefers the play sand over the peat moss. This week I will keep the lights over the sand and next week the lights over the peat moss and see what he likes or if I am just going to mix the moss and sand together. So far he prefers the play sand. Even after physically moving him over the more humid moss that people keep telling me is better for him to borrow in, he moves back to the play sand section. But I need to determine if it is the temps or the substrates he is moving too. If the substrate is not going to make a difference and it is just the temperature then I am just going to mix the substrates.

 

[Tom]

Who edited my OP title ?

Anyway, I am trying to find out if Buster prefers the play sand over the peat moss. This week I will keep the lights over the sand and next week the lights over the peat moss and see what he likes or if I am just going to mix the moss and sand together. So far he prefers the play sand. Even after physically moving him over the more humid moss that people keep telling me is better for him to borrow in, he moves back to the play sand section. But I need to determine if it is the temps or the substrates he is moving too. If the substrate is not going to make a difference and it is just the temperature then I am just going to mix the substrates.

The substrate is going to make a difference when he gets sand impacted or an eye infection.


Put a toddler on your front yard and walk away. The toddler will choose to stay in the yard and not go out onto the busy street, right? Because they know staying in the yard would be better for them, right?

How about a tortoise example instead: Give a sulcata or leopard tortoise a heated house in an outdoor enclosure on a night that will drop below freezing and many of them will go park in a corner if given the choice. The keeper who assumes that his/her tortoise knows best will wake up to a dead, frozen tortoise. The keeper who assumes we are dealing with simple minded animals that are being housed in conditions that are different than what they would experience in the wild, and puts his tortoise in the warm box every night, will be rewarded with a happy healthy tortoise.

There are a whole host of reasons why a tortoise might decide to stay on one side or another of its allotted space. Substrate is just one factor of many to consider. Other factors can over-ride what we think they ought to do, or what they might otherwise do. For example: The more immediate concern of avoiding predation or a conspecific bully, might over-ride the need for basking, eating, drinking or resting in an area with the best humidity and substrate.

Imagine the things you would know if you had kept hundreds of tortoises of several species in all sorts of conditions and enclosures for several decades. Imagine if you had done side-by-side experiments with growing groups of clutch mates in various conditions. Imagine if you'd been doing all sorts of growth and health experiments, trying all sorts of different ideas for many years, year after year after year, and looking at your own long term results as well as the results of dozens or hundreds of other people too. Just imagine the things you would know and all the harm to tortoises that could be avoided if you were able to effectively share what you know with other people about things like using sand as a substrate...

 

[JoesMum]

Who edited my OP title ?

Anyway, I am trying to find out if Buster prefers the play sand over the peat moss. This week I will keep the lights over the sand and next week the lights over the peat moss and see what he likes or if I am just going to mix the moss and sand together. So far he prefers the play sand. Even after physically moving him over the more humid moss that people keep telling me is better for him to borrow in, he moves back to the play sand section. But I need to determine if it is the temps or the substrates he is moving too. If the substrate is not going to make a difference and it is just the temperature then I am just going to mix the substrates.

The mods will have edited because your opening post appeared to be about the pea question.

As for the play sand my response is that just like the peas, it's not about what your tort prefers, it's about what will keep your tort healthy. That's your choice and not your tort's.

Play sand, as we have explained before, isn't good for reasons of humidity and sticking to food causing impaction in the gut. It's also rubbish for digging and burrowing. Orchid bark, coco coir... anything earthy that holds moisture without bits like perlite , stones or calcium pieces ... just not sand!

 

[Mr Buster]

I don't know that to Buster the play sand is rubbish or not. All I know is that he at this moment has chosen to borrow in it over the moist peat moss.

I don't know that I should be overly concerned about the moisture when I am soaking him every morning for 30 minutes and he always has ample water in his enclosure. I have also read where people have adjusted the humidity in enclosures not through substrate, but simply by changing the size of the water dish.

As for referring Buster to children and toddlers, he is not a child but an instinctual animal. Generally, when people start making comparisons or arguing on behalf of "protecting children" it points to a political agenda. It almost seems like someone is on a messiah complex here. Let's call an orange an orange and an apple an apple. Yes, I do care about my pet very much, There is a quality of life issue here I have to take into account for my pet too- if he likes the sand and I am certain it is not getting overly into him then let him live a little.

 

[JoesMum]

Let's call a tortoise a tortoise then.

Tortoises do not rate high on the intelligence scales. They will do what they need to survive.

If that means eating foods that are not good for them then they do so. Like young humans, their instincts tell them that some foods are good to eat and their lack of knowledge does not tell them that over-doing it can make them sick.

In the wild, seasonal availability of those foods means that they will not eat too much as they cannot get them every day year round. In captivity the owner has to provide the checks and balances.

In the wild, your tortoise would not come across peas to eat every day... probably never encounter them at all. Your tort has no instinct not to eat them in preference to anything else. You control the availability in captivity. You are the one that needs to cut feeding them to your tort.

In the wild your tort would be living on grassland which may be dry at times, but not sandy. In its search for food a wild tort will gravitate to the greenest places available to graze. Sand doesn't promote good plant growth so would be avoided if at all possible. Again your tort has no instincts with sand because their is little in its wild habitat. You're the one providing the substrate in captivity. You are the one that needs to make the choices and not your tortoise.

I cannot put it any plainer than that.

You are on a forum with people who have been caring for tortoises for many years. We've had ours for 46 years alone. Between us we have hundreds, if not thousands, of years of experience of caring for tortoises. We have made mistakes, have had sick tortoises and dead tortoises, and we have learned from them. We pass on this information to others so that these animals, being raised in unnatural captive conditions, can have the best lives possible without having those mistakes being repeated.

As I said before, I wish your tortoise well and that is why I keep trying to persuade you to accept the views of the experienced keepers on this forum.

 

[Tom]

I don't know that to Buster the play sand is rubbish or not. All I know is that he at this moment has chosen to borrow in it over the moist peat moss.

I don't know that I should be overly concerned about the moisture when I am soaking him every morning for 30 minutes and he always has ample water in his enclosure. I have also read where people have adjusted the humidity in enclosures not through substrate, but simply by changing the size of the water dish.

As for referring Buster to children and toddlers, he is not a child but an instinctual animal. Generally, when people start making comparisons or arguing on behalf of "protecting children" it points to a political agenda. It almost seems like someone is on a messiah complex here. Let's call an orange an orange and an apple an apple. Yes, I do care about my pet very much, There is a quality of life issue here I have to take into account for my pet too- if he likes the sand and I am certain it is not getting overly into him then let him live a little.

Enough. I'm done.

Political agenda? Messiah complex? No. Wrong.

I just don't want ANOTHER tortoise to die a slow painful death because of owner ignorance. That is all. Nothing more than that. No hidden agenda. I want your tortoise to live a long happy life.

I learned these things the hard way. I did things wrong because I was ignorant and my tortoises suffered for it. I watched others around me do the same wrong things and watched their tortoises suffer and die. I listened to my vet friends who treat reptiles and tortoises, and I've seen all their cases where tortoises have suffered and died.

Some people have to learn the hard way. My problem is that your tortoise has to suffer for you to learn. We've been trying to prevent that, but you apparently aren't having it.

 

[Mr Buster]

Look, my tortoise has his fresh dark green romain, cilantro, and parsley on the side of the pen that is on the moist peat substrate. I did that so the sand would not stick to them. On the play sand side is the timothy hay. Guess what happened ? I picked him up and placed him in front of the dark green vegetables. He ate some peas and then turned away from the pile of dark greens and crawled to the side of the play sand and sniffed and ate some of the hay and then borrowed into the sand. That to me is not gravitating towards dark green stuff. He is showing preference in what he wants to eat and where he wants to rest. There are countless people out there who have had RTs fir decades in play enclosures without fatality. I appreciate the health, but accusing me of animal abuse is a stretch given the success and health of other people's Russians.

 

[Mr Buster]

Look, my tortoise has his fresh dark green romain, cilantro, and parsley on the side of the pen that is on the moist peat substrate. I did that so the sand would not stick to them. On the play sand side is the timothy hay. Guess what happened ? I picked him up and placed him in front of the dark green vegetables. He ate some peas and then turned away from the pile of dark greens and crawled to the side of the play sand and sniffed and ate some of the hay and then borrowed into the sand. That to me is not gravitating towards dark green stuff. He is showing preference in what he wants to eat and where he wants to rest. There are countless people out there who have had RTs fir decades in play enclosures without fatality. I appreciate the help and advice, but accusing me of animal abuse is a stretch given the success and health of other people's Russians that have spent years in play sand without negative consequences.

 

[JoesMum]

Look, my tortoise has his fresh dark green romain, cilantro, and parsley on the side of the pen that is on the moist peat substrate. I did that so the sand would not stick to them. On the play sand side is the timothy hay. Guess what happened ? I picked him up and placed him in front of the dark green vegetables. He ate some peas and then turned away from the pile of dark greens and crawled to the side of the play sand and sniffed and ate some of the hay and then borrowed into the sand. That to me is not gravitating towards dark green stuff. He is showing preference in what he wants to eat and where he wants to rest. There are countless people out there who have had RTs fir decades in play enclosures without fatality. I appreciate the health, but accusing me of animal abuse is a stretch given the success and health of other people's Russians.

Showing preference over what he wants to eat is not instinctively eating what's good for him.

I have explained.

I clearly cannot contribute anything useful to you

Like Tom, for the sake of your tortoise, it is with great regret that I am out of your threads.

 

[Mr Buster]

Yeah, and I am not picking up poop with my bare hands either. Thank you.

 

[mark1]

myself , i would mix some soil with the sand , so i had sandy soil as opposed to sand , if your worried about an impaction don't feed him on the dirt . i would continue to offer him as many different kinds of food as you can , including peas if it's what he eats , i would offer very few peas even if it were just one or two , just so he continues to eat something , not enough to satisfy him though ... i've found by feeding them like that they keep their appetite and it seems to me to help in getting them to eat other stuff .......... i've seen turtles who didn't eat for long periods of time seem to lose their appetite , and on occasion it's hard to get them eating again , and honestly eating is one of the better ways i know to judge an animals health .....

 

[Tidgy's Dad]

Here are a couple of articles.
The first talks about desert tortoises but applies to other species too :
http://www.tortoise.org/general/impact.html
The second is specifically for Russian torts. Scroll down to were is says, "Stay away from Sand":
http://www.reptilesmagazine.com/Turtles-Tortoises/Tortoise-Care/Russian-Tortoise-Care-Tips/

Sand is a killer, I believe you when you say you care about your tortoise, so please don't risk it.
Check out the net.
There are dozens more articles of tortoises dying from impaction due to sandy substrate.
please.

 

[Mr Buster]

Well, everyday I come home and Buster is nestled into the sand under on the side with the lamps. He ignore the peat side of the habitat even though that is where the food is. Sunday I will switch the bulb over the peat but for now I would say he has chosen the play sand as his habitat.

 

[Yvonne G]

From the Tortoise Trust web site:

" Peas and beans are also very high in phytic acid, which, like oxalic acid, inhibits calcium uptake."