EVs?

[Tom]

Anyone else taking a more serious look at electric cars? .04 cents a mile IF you have to pay for the electricity. Free if you have solar (I do) or if you can get free charging while parked at work. .25 cents a mile on average for an average gasoline powered sedan in a state with average current gas prices. I calculated .43 cents per mile for my 6.0 liter diesel with CA prices, and diesel has gone up since then.

I've been talking about it and watching videos lately. All the problems that made people not want one have been getting eliminated.

Previous reasons people gave for not wanting an EV (Electric vehicle):
1. Short range. Many of them are getting 270 or better miles per charge now. That's more than my compact cargo van. Expected to hit 500 miles per charge or more within a couple of years.
2. Lack of charging stations for long road trips. Not anymore. They are everywhere. There are apps to chart your course form charging station to charging station across the entire country now. This isn't an issue at all for daily driving since you charge at home. While at home under normal daily circumstances, you start every day with a full charge. No more gas station stops ever. Have you seen the lines at Costco or Sam's Club lately?
3. Long charging times. Some of the super chargers now give you an 85% charge in 20 minutes. It takes longer than that for me to potty the dogs, eat, buy fuel and potty myself on long road trips. Again, not an issue anyway for normal daily driving.
4. Battery longevity. Tesla model Y has a battery that is expected to last 300,000-500,000 miles. 500,000-800-000 is expected soon. I know that it exists in rare cases, but I've never had ANY vehicle come close to lasting 300,000 miles.
5. Initial cost. Some EVs are selling in the $30K-$40K range now. Same as any other car.

When I factor in that I never have to stop for fuel in some seedy area, never have to plan a fuel stop into my day since it charges every night at home, never have to do an oil change again, I get free electricity from a solar system that I put in 12 years ago, minimal maintenance time and costs since there is no engine to service, vehicle longevity (I buy cars and use them until they die...)... Someone tell me the down side? I'm aware of the environmental impact of mining the battery components, but is that worse than the environmental impact of oil drilling, refinement, transportation and use as we burn gasoline and diesel by the billions of gallons a day?

People have said: "What if the power grid goes down? Then how will you charge it?" I have solar, and I have four generators. I then ask them: "If the power grid goes down, how will you pump gas at the station. Those are electric gas pumps. Will the gas stations even be open if the power grid goes down?"

Shoot me down if I'm wrong about any of this. Educate me. Why should I not get an EV? Why should anyone not get one?

 

[KarenSoCal]

Why should I not get an EV? Why should anyone not get one?

Your arguments are valid, and I agree with you with 2 exceptions.

I recently read a diary of 2 guys road tripping cross country from Atlanta to CA in an EV. Of course, now I can't find that specific article, but the trip was done in 2021.

Their biggest snafu was in western TX, trying to get to Albuquerque. The gauge said they had enough charge for 200 miles, and they were only 100 miles away. They forgot one major point...it was about 20°, and we all know that batteries hate the cold. Now, those of us in SoCal are spoiled in that regard, but do you really want to HAVE to factor in the cold when going somewhere?

The 2nd part of their problem was that there were NO charging stations. West TX is pretty bleak when it comes to services, and they just haven't caught up to the EV's.

When the travellers finally drifted to the side of the road, they began calling roadside assistance, and discovered that the 1st 4 places they tried said "We don't tow Teslas!" They knew how, but won't because of the picky owners.

Finally a tow service was located, but the 2 had been on the shoulder for around 6 hours in 20° with no heat, freezing their b***s off. (That's "butts"...I need to watch my self-censorship...I make things worse! )

So if you are absolutely positive you won't take it to NM, or NoCal, or Denver, or...you get the idea.

I do think EV's will be the only car we can buy within the next 5-8 years. Guess we'd all better get ready.

 

[turtlesteve]

The features you want all exist individually but not in combination. The cars that have good range, long battery life, fast charging are not $30-40k. And the affordable ones don’t have the necessary features.

One more note is that long term, the cost to charge at a station will be market price and much more than the electricity cost. Realistically you’ll only save that money if slow charging at home. And, gas tax will inevitably be converted to mileage tax.

Once all these features exist on the same car (and they will in 5-10 more years), it will be hard to argue against buying them.

 

[jaizei]

• They're more or less unserviceable by "normal" people
• "Bricking" and not being able to move them without tow truck
• Electricity is a mystery for most people and there is/would be a learning curve understanding different chargers, plugs, etc.

 

[KarenSoCal]

And, gas tax will inevitably be converted to mileage tax.

The powers that be are planning to charge mileage tax for every mile driven in San Diego County. This harebrained idea is supposed to get people to take public transportation ("conveniently located near you!") for all trips in the city.

This is planned concurrently with a major upgrade to the public transport system, estimated cost in the Billions!

 

[Maro2Bear]

I think the “cold weather effect” on. EV batteries & range is just something one takes into account. Just like anything/everything else in life.

Cold Temperatures Affect an Electric Vehicle's Driving Range - Consumer Reports

Consumer Reports lets you know whether cold temperatures affect an electric vehicle’s driving range. The cold can reduce an unplugged EV’s range by about 20%.

www.consumerreports.org

 

[mark1]

the metals in electric car batteries i don't believe are produced in the united states ? i read if every car in the US had a an electric battery it would be 4.5 billion lbs of lithium , in 2020 182million lbs of lithium was produced worldwide ....... mining lithium is environmentally very unfriendly , it's been opposed by conservation groups in the US already , previous admin pushed for it ....got to think "supply demand" , battery prices might look a bit different than they do currently ..... not to mention the other materials needed manganese , cobalt and nickel ,they are subject to market pricing just as oil ., we buy a lot of nickel where i work , i seen it go from $7 per pound to $24 per pound in months ....... i believe china might be the #1 producer of raw materials for electric car batteries , that doesn't sound safe ........ not sure the national security safety narrative i'm currently seeing on the news is a good argument for getting rid of fossil fuels ? they are trying to put windmills in lake erie , there is an environmental group suing to stop it , didn't get all the details aside from killing migratory birds , i did learn each windmill contains 700 gallons of oil that needs renewed every 10months , and leaking oil is not uncommon ............

 

[MEEJogja]

• They're more or less unserviceable by "normal" people
• "Bricking" and not being able to move them without tow truck
• Electricity is a mystery for most people and there is/would be a learning curve understanding different chargers, plugs, etc.

These are valid concerns. The 'smartness' of the vehicles and the fact they are EVs should be separate issues though. Manufacturers like Tesla bricking vehicles if a non Tesla part is fitted is disgusting and flies in the face of 'right to repair'. They are also not surprisingly trying to get you onto subscription pricing left right and center. All bad for consumers.

That is not related to the fact they are EVs though. In fact most of the things you do when servicing a vehicle these days are irrelevant with an EV. timing belts, oil and coolant changes etc. They need much less maintenance.

Funnily enough my mother had a relatively new mini cooper a few years ago and it needed new brake pads. I bought the replacement brake pads and went to do it one day. Long story short, it is engineered in such a way that in order to free the old brake pads, you must destroy the sensor which tells you that you need new brake pads. If you do not replace the sensor then the dash will constantly flash errors and basically make driving it a horrible and frustrating experience.

This shitty behaviour is made easier with technology, but that technology is being implemented on vehicles regardless of the motor.

 

[Blackdog1714]

I am waiting for more truck options

 

[jeff kushner]

You guys know I'm not jaded against electric, I even spent my own money to buy a couple of robots to cut my grass......in fact I wanted electric transportation so badly, I did the research since the 80's, every new breakthrough, every new chem comp, every new physical solution....but here's where we are today since we now have 30+ years of History............and for the sake of discussion, we'll leave Tesla out of it....but through everyone's smoke and mirrors(and there's a lot of smoke and mirrors), here's where I see it though my "objective" eyes;

If you are 25, buy electric when the dollars make sense, your life is screwed anyway in every possible way compared to how ours was at 25.....too bad for you, period! (PM me to know why if you ain't figured it out, I'm not causing trouble here again...lol)

It's no longer about range, noise, pollutants or climate of sustainability or any of that....it was at one time or another, but not anymore......wait 10 years, they will GIVE you that electric car just like that are GIVING you that APPLE phone.....keep in mind, Iphone came out in '07 and they have been giving them away for 5 yrs. That is how lucrative being nailed to your butt is.


Call Nissan or Honda or Toyota or GM RIGHT NOW. go ahead, grab the phone with the other hand, we'll wait while you get them on the line................................

while we wait, lets learn that while "expected to last 300K miles or ten years" can also mean 42K and ten years...its now ten years- you are out of battery warranty and you've only driven 42,000 miles.....

OR use this time to look up used Electric cars to see total mileage vs remaining bat cap when listed(never is- amazing how that works, right?

ring ring;

Ask the Service manager how much is cost to replace the 10 year old battery in the otherwise stellar & perfect condition car you have, be it a Leaf, Insight, Prius or Volt..................$17,000 and UP was the numbers I've read. Are you FKM??? Think you're a "economist" now or a sap?

Isn't it interesting that to make 10 mil in profit, @15k per car on a replacement battery, they only have to service 666 cars....but I'm not conspiracy theorist....I just do numbers.....LOL

Now, does anyone remember Apple getting caught intentionally reducing battery capacity to force upgrades?

Does it make you feel " all warmy inside" knowing your battery and your car can be controlled remotely by the very company that will be selling you a new one, on THEIR time, by their" hyper concerned" employees?

It isn't the car that matters anymore Tom.....it's the end game! Jeez guys, it isn't that hard, this group is smarter then this!

 

[Maro2Bear]

Now, does anyone remember Apple getting caught intentionally reducing battery capacity to force upgrades?

Yes….plus the printer ink cartridge scam too.
We watched a documentary on this whole little scheme recently, where they were programmed to auto fail & auto ship replacements Or not work with generic brands.

➡️ https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-2002-10-17-0210170287-story.html

 

[Maggie3fan]

Anyone else taking a more serious look at electric cars? .04 cents a mile IF you have to pay for the electricity. Free if you have solar (I do) or if you can get free charging while parked at work. .25 cents a mile on average for an average gasoline powered sedan in a state with average current gas prices. I calculated .43 cents per mile for my 6.0 liter diesel with CA prices, and diesel has gone up since then.

I've been talking about it and watching videos lately. All the problems that made people not want one have been getting eliminated.

Previous reasons people gave for not wanting an EV (Electric vehicle):
1. Short range. Many of them are getting 270 or better miles per charge now. That's more than my compact cargo van. Expected to hit 500 miles per charge or more within a couple of years.
2. Lack of charging stations for long road trips. Not anymore. They are everywhere. There are apps to chart your course form charging station to charging station across the entire country now. This isn't an issue at all for daily driving since you charge at home. While at home under normal daily circumstances, you start every day with a full charge. No more gas station stops ever. Have you seen the lines at Costco or Sam's Club lately?
3. Long charging times. Some of the super chargers now give you an 85% charge in 20 minutes. It takes longer than that for me to potty the dogs, eat, buy fuel and potty myself on long road trips. Again, not an issue anyway for normal daily driving.
4. Battery longevity. Tesla model Y has a battery that is expected to last 300,000-500,000 miles. 500,000-800-000 is expected soon. I know that it exists in rare cases, but I've never had ANY vehicle come close to lasting 300,000 miles.
5. Initial cost. Some EVs are selling in the $30K-$40K range now. Same as any other car.

When I factor in that I never have to stop for fuel in some seedy area, never have to plan a fuel stop into my day since it charges every night at home, never have to do an oil change again, I get free electricity from a solar system that I put in 12 years ago, minimal maintenance time and costs since there is no engine to service, vehicle longevity (I buy cars and use them until they die...)... Someone tell me the down side? I'm aware of the environmental impact of mining the battery components, but is that worse than the environmental impact of oil drilling, refinement, transportation and use as we burn gasoline and diesel by the billions of gallons a day?

People have said: "What if the power grid goes down? Then how will you charge it?" I have solar, and I have four generators. I then ask them: "If the power grid goes down, how will you pump gas at the station. Those are electric gas pumps. Will the gas stations even be open if the power grid goes down?"

Shoot me down if I'm wrong about any of this. Educate me. Why should I not get an EV? Why should anyone not get one?

Hey Tom...there's a guy I am friends with at church. His company takes hot rods like mine and makes them electric. No thanks, but he says the Tesla EV is the best. For people like you or me is the range now is only 300 miles. Finding a charging station on the road is a problem now, more will be put in tho soon, as they are in progressively growing.

 

[Blackdog1714]

Also the big issue for me is range. I travel from Richmond to Akron,OH to visit family yearly and it's 422 miles. I have done it as quickly as 6 hours and average 7.5. With an EV I would have to stop to recharge and that would add a ton of time Not to mention the capital needed to charge at home after buying an EV- this 2022 where is my flying car🤪

 

[Maggie3fan]

You guys know I'm not jaded against electric, I even spent my own money to buy a couple of robots to cut my grass......in fact I wanted electric transportation so badly, I did the research since the 80's, every new breakthrough, every new chem comp, every new physical solution....but here's where we are today since we now have 30+ years of History............and for the sake of discussion, we'll leave Tesla out of it....but through everyone's smoke and mirrors(and there's a lot of smoke and mirrors), here's where I see it though my "objective" eyes;

If you are 25, buy electric when the dollars make sense, your life is screwed anyway in every possible way compared to how ours was at 25.....too bad for you, period! (PM me to know why if you ain't figured it out, I'm not causing trouble here again...lol)

It's no longer about range, noise, pollutants or climate of sustainability or any of that....it was at one time or another, but not anymore......wait 10 years, they will GIVE you that electric car just like that are GIVING you that APPLE phone.....keep in mind, Iphone came out in '07 and they have been giving them away for 5 yrs. That is how lucrative being nailed to your butt is.


Call Nissan or Honda or Toyota or GM RIGHT NOW. go ahead, grab the phone with the other hand, we'll wait while you get them on the line................................

while we wait, lets learn that while "expected to last 300K miles or ten years" can also mean 42K and ten years...its now ten years- you are out of battery warranty and you've only driven 42,000 miles.....

OR use this time to look up used Electric cars to see total mileage vs remaining bat cap when listed(never is- amazing how that works, right?

ring ring;

Ask the Service manager how much is cost to replace the 10 year old battery in the otherwise stellar & perfect condition car you have, be it a Leaf, Insight, Prius or Volt..................$17,000 and UP was the numbers I've read. Are you FKM??? Think you're a "economist" now or a sap?

Isn't it interesting that to make 10 mil in profit, @15k per car on a replacement battery, they only have to service 666 cars....but I'm not conspiracy theorist....I just do numbers.....LOL

Now, does anyone remember Apple getting caught intentionally reducing battery capacity to force upgrades?

Does it make you feel " all warmy inside" knowing your battery and your car can be controlled remotely by the very company that will be selling you a new one, on THEIR time, by their" hyper concerned" employees?

It isn't the car that matters anymore Tom.....it's the end game! Jeez guys, it isn't that hard, this group is smarter then this!

trouble maker...

 

[Maro2Bear]

Yikes. I know batteries in general can be expensive, in fact they comprise the most expensive part of my DIY roof-top solar array package. The batts are 12v AGM 100 watt hour. Each batt (of 4) costs more than my solar panels. 🤷‍♂️

Anyhow, back to Jeff’s postings on Tesla replacement battery costs. Gee, who knew they were THAT much! No wonder I see lots of second-hand Teslas on the market…. The owners are prob buying new Teslas rather than pay for “just” a new battery.

Tesla Battery Replacement Cost Explained

How much does it cost to replace the battery in a Tesla Model S, 3, X or Y? What does parts & labor cost? Find out now!

www.findmyelectric.com

Was doing more reading & research on temp & range & charging stations…and range too!

It's 2022. Can You Finally Take a Road Trip in an Electric Car? | Gear Patrol

To see if road trips are feasible in electric vehicles, we drive an Audi RS E-Tron GT and a Mercedes-Benz EQS on a long trip to Vermont.

www.gearpatrol.com

 

[Tom]

You guys know I'm not jaded against electric, I even spent my own money to buy a couple of robots to cut my grass......in fact I wanted electric transportation so badly, I did the research since the 80's, every new breakthrough, every new chem comp, every new physical solution....but here's where we are today since we now have 30+ years of History............and for the sake of discussion, we'll leave Tesla out of it....but through everyone's smoke and mirrors(and there's a lot of smoke and mirrors), here's where I see it though my "objective" eyes;

If you are 25, buy electric when the dollars make sense, your life is screwed anyway in every possible way compared to how ours was at 25.....too bad for you, period! (PM me to know why if you ain't figured it out, I'm not causing trouble here again...lol)

It's no longer about range, noise, pollutants or climate of sustainability or any of that....it was at one time or another, but not anymore......wait 10 years, they will GIVE you that electric car just like that are GIVING you that APPLE phone.....keep in mind, Iphone came out in '07 and they have been giving them away for 5 yrs. That is how lucrative being nailed to your butt is.


Call Nissan or Honda or Toyota or GM RIGHT NOW. go ahead, grab the phone with the other hand, we'll wait while you get them on the line................................

while we wait, lets learn that while "expected to last 300K miles or ten years" can also mean 42K and ten years...its now ten years- you are out of battery warranty and you've only driven 42,000 miles.....

OR use this time to look up used Electric cars to see total mileage vs remaining bat cap when listed(never is- amazing how that works, right?

ring ring;

Ask the Service manager how much is cost to replace the 10 year old battery in the otherwise stellar & perfect condition car you have, be it a Leaf, Insight, Prius or Volt..................$17,000 and UP was the numbers I've read. Are you FKM??? Think you're a "economist" now or a sap?

Isn't it interesting that to make 10 mil in profit, @15k per car on a replacement battery, they only have to service 666 cars....but I'm not conspiracy theorist....I just do numbers.....LOL

Now, does anyone remember Apple getting caught intentionally reducing battery capacity to force upgrades?

Does it make you feel " all warmy inside" knowing your battery and your car can be controlled remotely by the very company that will be selling you a new one, on THEIR time, by their" hyper concerned" employees?

It isn't the car that matters anymore Tom.....it's the end game! Jeez guys, it isn't that hard, this group is smarter then this!

Believe me when I say I hear you my friend, but here is a point to consider for our discussion: Do you believe these corporate shenanigans with "planned obsolescence" and other scams are not also happening with the completely computer controlled internal combustion engine cars? I don't like any of it, but I'm not ready to go be a hermit in the woods just yet, and that would be the only way to avoid these things that I can see.

Also, Are you saying the claims of 300,000-500,000 mile batteries are false? If they are not false, I wouldn't ever be replacing a battery. I've replaced car engines before, but I've never had a car last 300,000 miles, much less double that.

 

[turtlesteve]

I am impressed by many things about Tesla, but their focus on self driving, “fluff” high end features and trying to block 3rd party repairs are a big turn off.

What I really want is a home solar system, hardware now very affordable but the install costs are obscene (that part of the industry is a total racket).

 

[Tom]

I am impressed by many things about Tesla, but their focus on self driving, “fluff” high end features and trying to block 3rd party repairs are a big turn off.

What I really want is a home solar system, hardware now very affordable but the install costs are obscene (that part of the industry is a total racket).

Look around a bit. Find a company without middle-men "used car salesmen" type people that come sit at your kitchen table and try to upsell you. I interviewed 5 companies before settling on one. The guy that sat at my kitchen table was also the company owner and one of the guys up on my roof. Each other company I talked to was ridiculous.

 

[wellington]

Nope won't do it unless that's all that's left. Maybe if I wanted a car just for city driving I'd consider it. I drive to MI too much to worry about how far i can get before i have to sit and wait for a charge. Have not seen very many charging stations at gas stations either.
Besides, I love my Jeep Wrangler to much too give it up!

 

[wellington]

I am impressed by many things about Tesla, but their focus on self driving, “fluff” high end features and trying to block 3rd party repairs are a big turn off.

What I really want is a home solar system, hardware now very affordable but the install costs are obscene (that part of the industry is a total racket).

I know a few people that have solar. They still get a high electric bill and will be dead before they have it paid off.
I was quoted 50, 000 even if I paid cash. Wouldnt see any savings until after I was probably dead. It needs to be much cheaper then it is and I need my electric bull to be zero before I will get it.