Experiments...

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stells

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I find it quite worrying that so many people seem to be experimenting on their tortoises... husbandry etc... and openly posting these experiments before they have concluded on the forum...

The way i see it anyone can look at the forum... and copy... then if these experiments don't work out... there are going to be more casualties than there originally would have been... if the experiments are a a success its all well and good...

Wouldn't it be better to complete the experiments first... taking pictures every step of the way... logging details... vet trips... bloodwork that has been done... etc etc... then posting the results when the experiment is over... thats way it would actually benefit the forum... instead of harming it IF things go wrong...

Don't get me wrong... i am one to try new things... if what i am doing isn't working out... but they are just small tweeks on opinions... and research i have done... and i don't advise on it until i have been doing it for a while... and i know it is working... then it will also be worded... as "well this is what i do with my tortoises"... so people can try it for themselves or not if they wish..

I know some will think i am trying to stir things here... but i really am not... just something that has been bugging me for sometime... and as more experiments are posted... the more it bugs me...


Don't delete it this time Danny!!!
 

yagyujubei

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People do these "experiments" because the "facts" we have learned on husbandry seems to mostly be incorrect. I am not sure just which experiments you have seen that you believe will result in casualties. This is not "the beginners only forum", and I for one applaud anyone who questions the status quo re: husbandry. From what i have seen on the UK sites, is that issues such as pyramided shells is accepted as basically normal,or at least not a top concern. and the answers seem to be keep then dry and don't feed too much. So, as a keeper, ther are basically a couple of different ways of doing things. 1) Raise your tortoises as we always have because that's the tried and true method. or 2) Try to move forward and do better than before. I welcome all new ideas. Do I blindly follow them? Nope.
 

dmarcus

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I agree with Missy "before the last thread was deleted" about maybe putting in a disclaimer or warning that it should not be tried at home because this is an experiment. But, some of these things may take years to see any results and it helps to see that progress along the way and to learn what others are doing.

Somtimes for me its things like the enclosures that are being used or the diet being offered that will give me ideas. Some of the best stuff I have learned have been from those experiments threads and all the different post's that have gone along with them.

Maybe it's the word experiment that is the problem. I know a lot of us try different things to make are tortoises better but we choose to call it a new idea or just trying something different, but in reality all we are doing is expermenting with different things to improve there lives. So maybe if it's not called an experiment any more and just termed "trying a new husbandry idea" then it would not seem as bad..
 

Yvonne G

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I understand where Kelly's coming from. But I really don't think the folks undertaking the experiments are doing anything that would harm the babies.

We have a wonderful opportunity here to learn and be able to say, "Well, in the Pacific Northwest, we have found that you need to take care of your sulcata babies this way..." And, "In very dry, desert-like conditions, it helps if you take care of your baby this way..."

Right now, we sort of have a one-size-fits-all kind of response. But with all these experiments all over the U.S. we will learn what works in the other climates.
 
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stells

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Patience is a virtue... the best things come to those who wait etc etc...

The "experiments" may take years... but i personally feel they would be more construtive... as one big thread with the whole "experiment" at the start of it... made up of evidence and pictures... taken throughout the years... rather than split through pages and pages of comments such as aw those are great etc... i know i have gotten bored of wading through posts to see update pictures... to the point where i have given up... i think it would be more constructive if done that way...

There also aren't only members viewing the forums... you have guests that may not want to join up... but want to read to get idea's... these are more what i am getting at than members who can ask questions..

I also feel that "experiments" should not be generalized... when they have only been done on a handful of species... as this could also get newer people into thinking that it can be done with every single tortoise out there... i just know one will be done on greeks soon... even though myself and others have posted pictures of perfectly grown greeks that have been kept dry... with just internal hydration...

I guess i am just a person who doesn't feel the need to big myself up by doing such things... maybe thats why i don't understand it..
 
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Maggie Cummings

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Experiment # 4 is not an experiment at all. I am proving to Tom MAYBE, but I am simply raising my babies the way I have always told everyone to raise their Sulcata. Using my 4 things, actually they are not mine, they are the way I was taught by my sister. There are 4 things needed to prevent pyramiding...1. a good and varied diet 2. strong UVB 3. lots of exercise and lots of humidity.

Stells...if you follow back any of my posts I have been saying this same thing about the 4 things needed to prevent pyramiding since I first came on to TFO.
It became an experiment when Tom decided to try and see if anyone's different ways of raising their babies actually made any difference at all. My 4 things, Toms keep them hot humid and hydrated and however Kristina calls her way of raising them. So it's actually not an "experiment" it's just trying to prove that one of those ways works better than others, or they all work. Mostly it's just fun.

I would NEVER do anything to any chelonian that would hurt them. I wouldn't keep any animal in a way I wasn't positive was the best way. None of these ways are an actual experiment. We all have three babies and we planned on comparing them as they grew that's all. Just trying to have fun with it...

I will continue to raise my babies using my 4 ways. I am sorry you find it boring we were simply trying to have some fun comparing our babies as they grew.
 

Chris.Todd.1991

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I fully understand where your coming from, I hate when I look on a forum and see the title "experiment blah blah blah"...I'm sitting here like wait, this is your pet we're talking about, would you run 'experiments' on your dog or cat? But even since I joined the forum last year it seems huge progress has been made in the way we take care of our tortoises, and i know I've been helped out hundreds oftimes by the members of this forum.
I just hate seeing the word "experiment" when talking about our pets, something just gets to me. I know everyone on here is trying to better the lives of our tortoises, it bugs me out for some reason though :O
I'd rather see "observation of blah blah", I have no problem at all with trying out new things and setups, it's up to the person reading to blindly follow the new thing or to wait for results and see where it goes.
Sorry about my rant :p
 
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stells

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TBH... Maggie... this wasn't about you... i read you experiment number 4 posts... and guessed all by myself that it was not an experiment... as there was no explanation about what you were trying to do... i don't actually get why you called it an experiment...

You raise your tortoises as you see fit... and i will pop over as i see fit... i think i have as much right as anyone to be here...
 

ascott

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Wow.....this thread makes me want to lot off and go sit in my tortoise enclosures and just be happy...I think we could all use a hug once in awhile when we are feeling our feathers ruffled abit .....when I first noticed threads with the word experiment in them the first thing that came to mind were guys in white coats cutting and spicing throwing their heads make with that evil scientist laugh in all the old movies...but then I said, self, let's see what the heck it is because I refuse to believe it....so I went on and read some and realized...hmmm? People are simply sharing their methods for hosting their tortoises and turtles....right on! I was then able to read and agree or disagree or just hush up and think abit before I would put my two cents in....sometimes I see threads and by the title I know it is going to be sad and gruesome...so I don't even click on it....when if come onto the forum I do so to see the way other people offer care for our captive buddies....sometimes I get ideas..sometimes I get a smile...sometimes I feel heartbreak...sometimes I get compelled to participate....but I get so sad when I see a thread that is damning ...harsh words and comments. So here comes aBIG OLE FORUM HUG for any who might need it...now I am logging off...then going out to feed all my guys the huge score of dandelions and greens I picked ...please everyone, don't be so quick to attack :p
 

Nay

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Hi, I don't usually make a comment in a 'heated' argument, but having someone just come to my house to pick up some extra things I had to help them set up their new RF I will step in.
This forum has done nothing but help folks get new ideas. These dedicated individuals take the time to show us things they are doing to 'help' us all raise healthier happier torts. The person who came to my house had purchased a RF at one of the local pet stores. They sold her this young tort and told her a box with newspapers and strawberries as a diet was perfect. This is not about how Pet Stores are idiots by not educating people purchasing at their stores. This is about how this forum has people who will take the time money and energy to better educate everyone.
I,in turn, spent an hour with this girl, and she left with so much more info for her new pet. I told her to send me pics of her set up and I will help her "tweeK" it.
This forum has done that for me, and I will pay it forward.. I have done more 'tweeking' in the last couple years all do to the folks here.
THANK YOU!! ALL of you!! and please continue with your 'tweeking', maybe a more appropriate word than experiments.?
Just my thoughts.
Nay
 

Fernando

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I sort of agree to this thread to a degree :p

It would be nice to get sort of a summed up conclusion, and while having everything documented, answer all the questions following the initial post. It makes things look clean and organized. I think that maybe the people doing the experiment are just so excited to share, that they just post as they go along...I can understand that too. Like someone mentioned here, maybe a disclaimer before the post of some sort.

Experiment defined as - a test, trial, or tentative procedure; an act or operation for the purpose of discovering something unknown or of testing a principle, supposition, etc.: a chemical experiment; a teaching experiment; an experiment in living.

When I read everyone's angry post's on TFO, I imagine typing heavily on the keyboard almost slamming down on it to a point...take a breath guys. Go out to your tortoise and explain to them why you are so upset and see how they respond.... :p
 

Neal

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FernandoM said:
Go out to your tortoise and explain to them why you are so upset and see how they respond.... :p

lol, wise words.
 

October

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I'm gonna be the odd woman out and agree with Kelly. Kinda. Classifying something as an experiment involving your torts has always made me uncomfortable. My in-progress science schooling has taught me that experiments are never foolproof and could be heartbreaking if I had to use my own pets.

I'd personally use something like... analysis or investigation or something. I dunno.

BUT what I do know is that the experimenters have nothing but the best interest at heart, so while the word experiment makes me uncomfortable, what they are trying to do does not.
 

TylerStewart

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I agree the word "experiment" sounds harsh.... To me, an experiment is testing something that may or may not work.

Raising a tortoise on nothing but water and Mazuri was an experiment. It worked surprisingly well.
 

onarock

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I agree Kelly. Do the expeiment then post the results and answer question. I like how some on here stated that they were doing an experiment to "prove" their method. And I like how others went off topic to discuss pyramiding as if it were the "top concern", dont think its that dramatic, but hey, some have it in their mind that it is the top concern.

Oh, Tyler. I read it before it got moderated +1 :)
 

wrmitchell22

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emysemys said:
I understand where Kelly's coming from. But I really don't think the folks undertaking the experiments are doing anything that would harm the babies.

We have a wonderful opportunity here to learn and be able to say, "Well, in the Pacific Northwest, we have found that you need to take care of your sulcata babies this way..." And, "In very dry, desert-like conditions, it helps if you take care of your baby this way..."

Right now, we sort of have a one-size-fits-all kind of response. But with all these experiments all over the U.S. we will learn what works in the other climates.

I think you put that perfectly, I totally agree with you. They aren't going out of their way to harm the Torts, they are just trying to see what will work best for the torts.
 

Madkins007

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This feels like a lot of drama over nothing. The 'experiments' are not aggressive, invasive, or even usually very scientific, but the hearts of the experimenters is almost always in the right place- trying to find a better way to raise tortoises.

I cannot tell you how frustrated I have been trying to find good info for my Red-foots, only to keep running into people saying to do it 'this way' and then discover that the method in question is designed for people in Florida, or large-scale breeders, etc.

We know a lot about raising healthy, happy tortoises- but there is still so much we do not know, so much that good research, experimentation, and more can show. Sure, maybe I wish we could get more controls or standards on things, and I have to admit that I really enjoy the discussions and knowledgeable, respectful debates that many of these generate.

Do we have a responsibility to casual visitors to be perfectly on-target at all times? I really don't think so. Forums, by their natures, are fast-moving, constantly changing places full of all kinds of mixed stuff. For example- I always suggest to newbies that they post their questions here, but I NEVER suggest they visit to learn the basics of care for their species. That sort of information is best found elsewhere.
 

terryo

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I NEVER get involved with these angry debates, and I'm sure this one will turn out to be one of them, but I just have to comment on this thread.
I think this is a ridiculous thread too, and I don't think it has anything to do with the "experiment" at all.......unfortunately.
I notice that groups are starting to form here, and I think it's very sad. Sometimes I read the threads from when the forum just started, and I see how everyone was so friendly and had a common goal. Now, the debate section has turned into a school yard. Remember when you were a little kid, and there were groups in the school yard, each wispering about the other group? Very sad.
I absolutely agree with Maggie and Yvonne's post. I think it's fun to watch the torts grow and see how people are doing things differently in different parts of the country. As long as the tortoises are getting the best care, and they are, what is the harm in calling it an experiment?
 

dmmj

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So are you upset that hey are being done period? or do you object to the name "experiment". Maybe we could find a more PC term like "non scientific non experimental study"? anyone else got any other ideas?
 
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