Extreme Pyramiding - 23cm (Can he improve)?

yusufning

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HI Everyone,

I recently acquired a new male radiate tortoise. It has extreme case of pyramiding because it was given diet mostly on pellets and bad humidity.
Its 23cm. Can he improve? Because I know males can go above 35cm. Will such pyramiding cause any defects in the future? such as walking problem, etc. (please refer to the 3 pictures Ive included below)
8f7f969f-c509-407b-b809-936cb0489a7f.jpegb5944d48-82ef-4551-a861-f9cbe4f822c7.jpeg13c3f3b6-6733-4c6a-86f6-eea558d98628.jpeg
Thank you,
Yusuf
 

TammyJ

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Do you have any idea of his age? It seems that the pyramiding can be halted with the correct care, especially the correct level of humidity and frequent long soaking. Is he moving around and active?
 

Markw84

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You will find little you can do to correct the pyramiding at this point. Even proper conditions from this point on will have minimal effect on new growth. Once a tortoise has fully ossified bones and the growth has progressed to where the scutes are now at least double their original width, the plane of the underlying bone itself has been tilted and is growing in that new direction.

It does look like there is no sign of metabolic bone disease, just the major pyramiding. So there is no indication that there should be any ill effects from the pyramiding other than cosmetic.

The pyramiding is caused by new keratin growth at the scute seams drying or "curing" too quickly when the underlying bone is growing at the scutes are separating and laying down new keratin - not by diet. This forces the new keratin growth to harden on top and the natural swelling of the new growth of keratin is then forced downward. The puts the epithelial layer under compression which triggers osteoclastgenesis which is the metabolic way bone is broken down and reshaped. (The same mechanism that allows an orthodontist to move your teeth!) This creates widening valleys in the carapace as each successive growth expansion is again forced downward. At first, this is happening over bone that is still ossifying and contains a lot of cartilage. But as it continues, the bone becomes more fully ossified in this new direction and when the valley is wide enough it will tip an entire vertebral bone plate. There are more bone plates than scutes along the spine, so this will fairly quickly change the plane of that bone plate along the ventral line. You can moderate this as not all bone plates will be tipped. Some will be folded. So with proper conditions, the pyramiding can become less severe looking. But once progressed this far with this much growth, you cannot get totally smooth new growth.
 

yusufning

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Do you have any idea of his age? It seems that the pyramiding can be halted with the correct care, especially the correct level of humidity and frequent long soaking. Is he moving around and active?
Im not too sure, but its a male 23cm. I know they can grow up to 40cm, hence Im hoping the pyramiding can get lesser with new growth :)
 

yusufning

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You will find little you can do to correct the pyramiding at this point. Even proper conditions from this point on will have minimal effect on new growth. Once a tortoise has fully ossified bones and the growth has progressed to where the scutes are now at least double their original width, the plane of the underlying bone itself has been tilted and is growing in that new direction.

It does look like there is no sign of metabolic bone disease, just the major pyramiding. So there is no indication that there should be any ill effects from the pyramiding other than cosmetic.

The pyramiding is caused by new keratin growth at the scute seams drying or "curing" too quickly when the underlying bone is growing at the scutes are separating and laying down new keratin - not by diet. This forces the new keratin growth to harden on top and the natural swelling of the new growth of keratin is then forced downward. The puts the epithelial layer under compression which triggers osteoclastgenesis which is the metabolic way bone is broken down and reshaped. (The same mechanism that allows an orthodontist to move your teeth!) This creates widening valleys in the carapace as each successive growth expansion is again forced downward. At first, this is happening over bone that is still ossifying and contains a lot of cartilage. But as it continues, the bone becomes more fully ossified in this new direction and when the valley is wide enough it will tip an entire vertebral bone plate. There are more bone plates than scutes along the spine, so this will fairly quickly change the plane of that bone plate along the ventral line. You can moderate this as not all bone plates will be tipped. Some will be folded. So with proper conditions, the pyramiding can become less severe looking. But once progressed this far with this much growth, you cannot get totally smooth new growth.
HI Mark, thank you so much for your thorough answer and explanation. I see; so in that case what will it look like in the future? Do you happen to have any references? Also Ive attach another photo of a radiated (below, 30cm) which has quite pyramiding but the angle of the valley is not as prominent and jagged as my one. Will mine it look like that or entirely different?Untitled.jpg
 

yusufning

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@Markw84 @TammyJ Also I just received new information. So the previous owner said he have kept it for 10 months from 13cm. That means it has grown 10cm over the past 10months which is 1cm each month. I have kept alot of torto and I havent seen growth that fast. I asked what the diet: he said its mainly vegetables and fish pellets (its an animal based pellet for fish and KOI fish).
 

TammyJ

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@Markw84 @TammyJ Also I just received new information. So the previous owner said he have kept it for 10 months from 13cm. That means it has grown 10cm over the past 10months which is 1cm each month. I have kept alot of torto and I havent seen growth that fast. I asked what the diet: he said its mainly vegetables and fish pellets (its an animal based pellet for fish and KOI fish).
Just coming on and seeing this. Really don't think "vegetables and fish pellets" sounds very helpful as diet information! You need to make sure he gets a proper diet for this particular species of tortoise.
 

zovick

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HI Mark, thank you so much for your thorough answer and explanation. I see; so in that case what will it look like in the future? Do you happen to have any references? Also Ive attach another photo of a radiated (below, 30cm) which has quite pyramiding but the angle of the valley is not as prominent and jagged as my one. Will mine it look like that or entirely different?View attachment 297833
Your tortoise will not have the highly domed shape that the one in your photo above has. Yours will be more flattened in its overall appearance. You should soak your tortoise daily for about 15-20 minutes and feed it a good diet with ample calcium and vitamin supplements to help it put on better growth from this time forward.
 
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