Eye problem/“failure to thrive”?

[CincyTort26]

Hi all! Baby Aziza (we have a name!) has been here about a week, but I’m not seeing her as active as I would have expected. She also seems to be having trouble with her eyes, keeping them closed often, even when soaking, and being very slow to open them when I “wake her up”

I have zero CFLs in her enclosure.

she has a CHE, regular light bulb, and long tube UV bulb.
I’ve caught her munching on some of the romane growing in her enclosure, but not much, and won’t touch the grass/clover/dandelions I’ve offered.

temps range from 79-108
Just installed the humidity gauge today, but it’s VERY humid in there.

Any ideas? I’m thinking maybe deworming is needed, what is typically used? In another life I was a vet tech and have a great exotics vet, but with the current situation... not sure this would be considered “essential”.....

 

[Maggie3fan]

First of all...most babies will not eat grass or weeds...it would be better for them...but...I feed babies Spring Mix cut into mouth sized bites for babies...I add the better weeds etc...but just a little and there again cut it up...You are dealing with a baby who needs to be treated like a baby...plz read all the information at the top of the Sulcata thread...for better advice we need pictures of your habitat with light, temps etc....

 

[Tom]

First of all...most babies will not eat grass or weeds...

I think this depends on the source, and also on the individual. My babies eat ONLY grass and weeds from the day they hatch. If they were started on lettuce at the breeders place, then yes, it can take some time to get them on better foods.

 

[CincyTort26]

I had another post just a few days ago with pictures of my enclosure, everyone (even tom!) said it looked good. Temps and lights are listed above. I've read every started post ten times at this point

I'm just concerned at the lack of activity in this little guy considering temps are good.

 

[Tom]

@CincyTort26 Where did you get this baby. It looks thin and emaciated. Even when your enclosure is perfect, which it sounds like it is, you can't always over come a bad start. In reference to Maggie's post and my rebuttal, do you know what the breeder was feeding this baby?

Has he eaten much in the week you've had him? I think you need a different food bowl for a tiny baby. That one looks too deep and too slick. Terra cotta saucers are more shallow and also offer better traction. If that isn't an option, a plastic butter tub lid will make it easier for the baby to get to the food and still keep the food off of the substrate.

Since you've got everything else correct, I'm guessing that you are soaking daily, and keeping the water warm in the soaking tub all the way through?

Which type of UV tube did you get and what is the mounting distance from the tortoise? Just trying to eliminate all the possibilities here.

Do you have an outdoor enclosure, and has it been warm enough for the baby to go outside for some sunshine yet? If yes, how is the baby when outside?

Can we see a pic of the entire enclosure? Maybe we'll see a clue there...

 

[Maggie3fan]

I think this depends on the source, and also on the individual. My babies eat ONLY grass and weeds from the day they hatch. If they were started on lettuce at the breeders place, then yes, it can take some time to get them on better foods.

It's beginning to look like we disagree on everything...lol...but this instance is one I have always had problems with...I have never been any good with tuff love, and honestly...I haven't had any babies for 10 years or so...possibly because my quality of husbandry has changed...so would have my care of babies...

 

[CincyTort26]

@Tom

This is the entire enclosure.
(the entrance to the humid hide is in the upper left corner)

Its not been warm enough here yet, high last week was 65, and the next few weeks are around 60 and rainy :/

I'm soaking daily for ~20min, keeping the water very warm, and was considering a second daily soak.

Baby is from arizona tort compound. I don't know for sure what they were fed, but in pictures I saw they had grass available.

The UV is the Zoo Med UVB tube bulb. I'll have to find my measuring tape but its sitting ontop of the wire, about 24" up?

edit/update: humidity is currently 72%, ambient temp 80, temp directly under the CHE 108.

As per your advice in my earlier thread, Tom, I replaced the reptile basking light I had with a regular light bulb but it doesn't seem to be giving off any appreciable heat.

 

[CincyTort26]

Oh, and as far as eating so far, I've only seen her munching on a few of the planted romaine plants. I wasn't worried she wasn't eating at first, assuming it was just stress from shipping.

She arrived 6 days ago (the 7th)

 

[CincyTort26]

Also, just for general knowledge, and sorry if this is a dumb question, but how do you tell if a tort looks emaciated?

 

[Tom]

@Tom

This is the entire enclosure.
(the entrance to the humid hide is in the upper left corner)

Its not been warm enough here yet, high last week was 65, and the next few weeks are around 60 and rainy :/

I'm soaking daily for ~20min, keeping the water very warm, and was considering a second daily soak.

Baby is from arizona tort compound. I don't know for sure what they were fed, but in pictures I saw they had grass available.

The UV is the Zoo Med UVB tube bulb. I'll have to find my measuring tape but its sitting ontop of the wire, about 24" up?

edit/update: humidity is currently 72%, ambient temp 80, temp directly under the CHE 108.

As per your advice in my earlier thread, Tom, I replaced the reptile basking light I had with a regular light bulb but it doesn't seem to be giving off any appreciable heat.

All of that looks great, but I see the source of the problem. This always creates such a dilemma for me. You look at posts from anyone that buys a baby from one of the few breeders that starts them indoors in warm humid enclosure, with daily soaks, and you don't see these problems. Just the opposite. Andy is a good guy. He runs a respectable business. He and I disagree on how babies should be started, and this is why. I don't want to hurt the man's business, but when I see babies that look like this and exhibit these symptoms, I can't recommend that people buy from him. I try to tell people what questions to ask before purchase, so they can talk to Andy and decide for themselves, but this is how it goes sometimes.

I met a man named Tomas Diagne in 2011. He runs the African Chelonian Institute. He grew up in sulcata land in Senegal and has been researching and working with tortoises his whole life. He started a breeding program with the intent of head starting some babies and releasing them in suitable areas because sulcatas were almost extinct in the wild in Senegal. He told me the last estimate was done to 40 animals left in the wild. Four zero. 40. He started his babies in large outdoor pens in the native environment where this species occurs naturally. He had problems. The babies failed to thrive and in his broken English he described to me that most of the babies were thin and had eye problems. There were failing to thrive and grow. His solution was to start soaking the babies, and run sprinklers all day to keep things wet and humid and to grow lush vegetation for them to eat and hide in.

Babies simply don't do well when housed outside all day. Climate and current weather don't matter. I've seen this over and over again all over the country, and done side by side comparisons with my own hatchlings from the same clutches. Babies do best when housed indoors, on damp substrate, with warm temps, high humidity, and daily soaks. Babies started outside on dry substrate or the ground, and soaked infrequently don't usually do well.

 

[CincyTort26]

All of that looks great, but I see the source of the problem. This always creates such a dilemma for me. You look at posts from anyone that buys a baby from one of the few breeders that starts them indoors in warm humid enclosure, with daily soaks, and you don't see these problems. Just the opposite. Andy is a good guy. He runs a respectable business. He and I disagree on how babies should be started, and this is why. I don't want to hurt the man's business, but when I see babies that look like this and exhibit these symptoms, I can't recommend that people buy from him. I try to tell people what questions to ask before purchase, so they can talk to Andy and decide for themselves, but this is how it goes sometimes.

I met a man named Tomas Diagne in 2011. He runs the African Chelonian Institute. He grew up in sulcata land in Senegal and has been researching and working with tortoises his whole life. He started a breeding program with the intent of head starting some babies and releasing them in suitable areas because sulcatas were almost extinct in the wild in Senegal. He told me the last estimate was done to 40 animals left in the wild. Four zero. 40. He started his babies in large outdoor pens in the native environment where this species occurs naturally. He had problems. The babies failed to thrive and in his broken English he described to me that most of the babies were thin and had eye problems. There were failing to thrive and grow. His solution was to start soaking the babies, and run sprinklers all day to keep things wet and humid and to grow lush vegetation for them to eat and hide in.

Babies simply don't do well when housed outside all day. Climate and current weather don't matter. I've seen this over and over again all over the country, and done side by side comparisons with my own hatchlings from the same clutches. Babies do best when housed indoors, on damp substrate, with warm temps, high humidity, and daily soaks. Babies started outside on dry substrate or the ground, and soaked infrequently don't usually do well.

That's honestly what I was most afraid of.... So I'm pretty much in a "wait and see" pattern? Not too much I can do? Just keep on doing what I'm doing and hope?

 

[Tom]

Also, just for general knowledge, and sorry if this is a dumb question, but how do you tell if a tort looks emaciated?

In the first pic of your tortoise, can you see how the leg looks thin and the skin is all shriveled. The leg should look full and the skin not so wrinkled.

I tried to find a pic of one of my babies from a similar angle to show the difference.

 

[Tom]

That's honestly what I was most afraid of.... So I'm pretty much in a "wait and see" pattern? Not too much I can do? Just keep on doing what I'm doing and hope?

Correct. Some of them survive and go on to thrive. What you are doing is all you can do. If the babies is used to eating lettuce, try feeding that with other stuff mixed in. Andy does a pretty good job of feeding his babies and introducing a variety of foods. Do you have Mazuri? The original type? That is good for bulking up babies, getting them hydrated, and I know Andy feeds that to them, so your tortoise already knows what it is and likes it.

 

[Tom]

It's beginning to look like we disagree on everything...

No. I disagree...

HAHAHAHAHAAAAA!

Seriously though, there is no tough love on my part in regard to this subject. I offer nothing but weeds, tender young grasses, leaves, flowers and succulents to my babies from day one, and that is all they know of food. I don't ever deprive them to make them eat what I want them to eat, they just don't know anything other than weeds and grasses because that's all they've seen. In fact, I have to make an effort to go to the store and buy some romaine and spring mix in their first few weeks, knowing that some of the people buying them will offer that stuff as food items, so they need to know what it is. There have been a few batches where I didn't do that, and people would buy them and wonder why they showed little interest in the lettuce they were being offered. I've had to explain why lettuce is not a good tortoise food and tell them to go get some weeds and grass, which immediately solved the problem.

 

[CincyTort26]

Correct. Some of them survive and go on to thrive. What you are doing is all you can do. If the babies is used to eating lettuce, try feeding that with other stuff mixed in. Andy does a pretty good job of feeding his babies and introducing a variety of foods. Do you have Mazuri? The original type? That is good for bulking up babies, getting them hydrated, and I know Andy feeds that to them, so your tortoise already knows what it is and likes it.

Ok. I'll mix in some lettuce, and order some Mazuri asap.

Thank you so much, Tom, for all your help and insight!!