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First Clutch of Phayrei

Discussion in 'Asian brown/black and Impressed tortoises' started by ScottAudette, Jun 16, 2017.

  1. ScottAudette

    ScottAudette New Member 5 Year Member

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    @Baoh we are going with 85f
  2. teresaf

    teresaf Well-Known Member

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    You may be interested in this project. It was very informative. They were actually able to get 100% females at certain higher temps.(which, in my humble opinion, we should strive for since males don't get along with males and only need one male to a group anyway). of course their incubator may have been more stable since the whole idea was to try different temps and see sex output... plus they probably monitored the temps day and night... the project was on Manouria emys emys but that's close enough, right? Hope you like it...

    http://scholarworks.gsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1010&context=biology_theses
  3. ScottAudette

    ScottAudette New Member 5 Year Member

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  4. teresaf

    teresaf Well-Known Member

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    you're welcome! It's a great read. I thought anyway.
  5. Will

    Will Well-Known Member

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    I do not cover the boxes. To keep humidity up and non-stagnate air I put aquarium aerators submerged in water in the incubators so fresh air is pumped through a water basin in the incubator.* The Water crystals in the perlite do not ever dry out doing this, although at times it seems like the perlite is dry. In another thread called Hatchrite hack, I decomposed the make up of Hatchrite a put a recipe for making your own. The water crystals are the key to it.

    I have on occasion put water into one corner of the box of eggs and it quickly spreads throughout.

    As for seeing them pip, yeah, I want to see neonates. The first one I may miss, but the others I see as I then pull back some of the hatchrite so just the tops of eggs show. I think I recall Kelly just lets them work their way up through the substrate in his system.

    On the matter on that article regarding temps and egg and the resulting sex of neonates. There are some things to consider. The Honolulu Zoo incubated at a reported 83F and produced males and females, including one that I have. I incubated at a temps starting at 83F and ending at 86/88F. Based on several people comments who have looked at the neonates, it would see they find I have a mix as well.

    The article that was re-posted in this thread used laparoscopy as a sex determination means as well as dissection. I don't intend to say I know better than those who did that work, but I will offer they could have made errors. The dissection is reported as being done on hatchlings, but I missed at what age? The laparoscopy was done at five months (but neonate size is not mentioned). It would be good to see the later age result.

    BTW, the incubator design shown in this article is as good as it gets for chelonian eggs. It's not so difficult to do. It makes humidity management a trivial concern and the heat-sink the water supplies works well for temp stability. An airstone in this type of incubator may be inappropriate.

    *The airstone in water in the incubator works well. I first saw Harold Carty do this, a chelonian keeper that to a great extent passed with more knowledge than our collective selves combined. I wish he had been a bit more interested in writing things down. I have subsequently seen this done by Bill McCord. Between these two individuals, they have bred more species than all of us combined.
  6. janevicki

    janevicki Member 5 Year Member

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    Congrats ScottAudette on your Mep laying eggs. I am excited for you as you wait for your eggs to hatch! 15 years is a long time to wait for your torts to breed. It's my dream that my group will also breed too. I also have Vic Morgan Meps but mine are only 5 years old so I got a ways to go before mine will be laying eggs. May you have great success in hatching all your Meps!
  7. K8E K

    K8E K Member

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    SQUEEE! Thanks for posting. Good luck, will expect updates!
  8. Baoh

    Baoh Well-Known Member 5 Year Member

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    Thanks, Scott. Looking forward to the straight carapace length of your female when you get the time, too. :)

    Every time I get a phayrei hatchling, I am pretty much enthralled. My keeper hatchling from last summer is a bit over 7" scl now. The one I will grow out for myself this year is just getting started at 2.25" scl and roughly a week old now. I am hoping the production I expect next year will prove bountiful. I really enjoy working with phayrei. There are a couple of nice keepers I know who are working with emys in the Tampa general area. Besides yourself and myself, I think most of the public Floridian phayrei-cultivating guys are further North and further South.

    If the majority of your 2017 eggs hatch, what is your plan for them? If you feel like mentioning it, that is.
  9. teresaf

    teresaf Well-Known Member

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    I'm a "nice keeper" here in South West Florida..... : )
  10. Baoh

    Baoh Well-Known Member 5 Year Member

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    My apologies. I did not mean to exclude you and should have been more specific. I was referring to people with breeding adults or breeding colonies and who own them outright (as opposed to the people who are working through organizational loans or have animals that are not yet sexually mature). There are many, many nice keepers who have juveniles all across the state. I hope that you are able to someday participate when your little ones become monsters and if the sexes work out favorably. I just remembered another breeder maybe twenty minutes from me, too, whose farm I have been overdue to visit. There is a keeper another county over as well, but his animals will never breed in their keeping conditions (the individual has a tendency to "accumulate" more so than accommodate the phayrei he obtains), unfortunately, as they get only enough to subsist as things are.

    ------

    I have been really pleased to see Scott get eggs, though, and have been hoping he would since I noticed his pair's photos last year sometime. My friendly acquaintances who breed phayrei usually get eggs, but the viability varies a lot from year to year. For me, it is more of an entirely binary yes/no production thing and less of a viability issue. More no than yes this season, but things are still settling into their arrangements. Next year should be a pretty big year.
  11. teresaf

    teresaf Well-Known Member

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    No problem. I don't feel slighted. : ) My MEPs are only 3 so it'll be a while before they start breeding. How many constitutes a colony? I want more anyway. If you hear of any juveniles up for sale I want more. Still setting up outside enclosure amongst the trees... we're new to Florida.
  12. ScottAudette

    ScottAudette New Member 5 Year Member

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    @Baoh , I'm not sure of the plans yet to be honest. It will depend on viability I suppose. At a minimum we probably would hold a few back and I'd love to trade for other bloodlines.

    We had some home school kids come over today so I finally got a chance to measure Grapes. She is 22" SCL.
  13. Baoh

    Baoh Well-Known Member 5 Year Member

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    Thank you for that measurement. :)
  14. tortadise

    tortadise Well-Known Member Moderator 5 Year Member

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    Yes, yes indeed. Most fantastic. Manouria is a mighty fine species. Tricky to incubate in tropical regions. I've found most successful hatching these in 100% (fertile eggs of course) being buried artificially. If left in the nest ants will Typically get them. Last year was a complete bust for us. We moved south so our female just laid them in the water bowl. These eggs being soft shelled can and will absorb a magnitude of moisture and drown the embryo. Good high humidity substrate is best. Many others have succeeded with traditional incubation techniques. But southernly regions like Florida, Texas, and Louisiana are more prone to infestation of insects. Whether extremely covered or not. Our methods
    Work great for us. May not work for others. But it's a mere replication of what the eggs would be laid in naturally.

    They also do hatch and emerge when ready. Consuming the egg shells and absorbing the embryonic sac before emerging. Quite fantastic.

    We use a layer system. Aggregate on the bottom, snorkel is the pipe to add water, mixed peat, sand, sphagnum moss in the top. Well excavate and bury the eggs all
    Together in the middle and add water to the snorkel as needed.
    IMG_5694.JPG

    We data collected the temperatures during a successful hatch. Center of the nest reached 101 degrees and averaged 83 during the duration of incubation.
    richosullivan likes this.
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