Fluorescent bulb for AP cage

[Shaif]

Can you guys help me design a lighting scheme for an 8 foot long enclosure? I was thinking MVB bulbs at each end for 2 different basking spots, and fluorescents to light the rest. But measurements don't work out cleanly. The tubes need to be under 48," and not cross the center.

This is definitely not my forte and any thoughts would be awesome!

 

[Yvonne G]

I would have a tube type UVB bulb in the middle and two regular lights, one at either end. You may also need a couple CHEs depending upon how cold your house gets. Far as I'm concerned, you only need one UVB bulb.

 

[Stuart S.]

Check out this design. http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/closed-chambers.32333/

 

[Shaif]

Check out this design. http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/closed-chambers.32333/

I have obsessed about this same setup for Months! I even begged Tom to make me the same, but he's so busy. It has 4 basking lights-- I think. But my Animal Plastics enclosure will be black PVC, so I'm thinking it will be dark-- even with 4 spots. Was thinking of a combo of MVB and fluorescents. Will be 8ft by 3 ft.

Thank you!

 

[Markw84]

Shaif

Not sure how much detail you're after, but since you are doing an 8 foot enclosure the same dimensions of mine, here is a post I did on how I set the lighting up in mine. It is very similar to what @Tom uses with some added learnings about light. If yours is enclosed, I really don't see how you can accomplish all you need with anything much different than this...


If you have an enclosed chamber, I think you will find it impossible to use a MVB without overheating. So most have gone with fluorescent tubes for lighting. So I will have ambient fluorescent tubes for part of my lighting coupled with a regular incandescent FLOOD bulb. (Not SPOT!) The flood bulb also provides the heat for basking. I add to that another fluorescent that is a UVB producing bulb. Your CHE should be on a thermostat and is used solely to maintain the minimum ambient temperature in your enclosure.

With fluorescents, I strive to create a better "natural sunlight" look as possible, so I use a bit more high-end fluorescent tubes from the hardware or home improvement stores. The cheaper bulbs normally will have serious color issues that do not produce a more "natural" light at all. ( I am experimenting with LEDs as well, but really need to be careful as the cheaper ones have horrible colors. But you can get ones with extremely good color balanced light, but they are more expensive.) So with fluorescents, I have gone towards the "daylight" 5000K to 5500K bulbs. In that range, a better bulb will normally have a CRI over 90. I believe the CRI (Color Rendering Index) of a bulb is an important consideration since tortoises are so visual in their behaviors and feeding. A 6000K bulb or higher will be more blue-white and the reds start merging with the oranges as that part of the spectrum is poorly covered in those bulbs. But by adding the incandescent flood, that will add back that part of the spectrum as standard incandescents have CRI's over 95. A good UVB tube and fixture, then completes the lighting setup adding the needed UVB, UVA parts of the spectrum.

SO what do I believe the best setup to provide all this? This is what I use in my 3 foot x 8 foot enclosed, insulated chambers.
2 - 100 watt CHE both wired to the same thermostat set to 81f with probe at the coolest part of the enclosure.
1 - double 4 foot T-5 fluorescent fixture with two daylight 5500K, 92 CRI tubes. On a timer - on for 14 hours a day.
2 - 65 watt incandescent FLOOD bulbs on the same timer as the Fluorescent fixture above. Also, from the timer through a thermostat set to 90f.
1 - 4 foot T5 HO 12% UVB light with reflector fixture on a timer on 5 hours a day 10AM to 3PM.

My chambers will overheat if I do not put the incandescent floods on a thermostat. Since I have the ambient lighting with the fluorescents as bright, I do not mind, in fact I like the basking floods going on and off a few times throughout the day. Just like some clouds blocking the sun part of the day in their home environment in the rainy season when they are most active and growing.

The UVB is not needed for 14 hours, and on a 5 hour cycle will then last much longer and probably not need replacing the bulb for at least 2 years or more. The double fluorescents create the ambient light and are pretty inexpensive.

I center the 4 foot fluorescents 12" apart in the chamber and mount the two floods between them. The floods are about 2 feet apart. This leaves a light gradient towards both ends of the chamber. Your tortoise will appreciate the "darker corners" and mine rest there under plants. So don't try to cover the entire 8 feet with lights! I also have the CHE's mounted, centered front to back 18" from each side.

I also use 2 - 4" x 12" and another 2 - 6" round clay pots planted with overhanging plants for cover in addition to a hide in each end. I think this is vital as tortoises would normally spend a majority of their time hiding under a bush or in a burrow, then coming out to bask and eat. So this gives them all those variables.

 

[Stuart S.]

I have obsessed about this same setup for Months! I even begged Tom to make me the same, but he's so busy. It has 4 basking lights-- I think. But my Animal Plastics enclosure will be black PVC, so I'm thinking it will be dark-- even with 4 spots. Was thinking of a combo of MVB and fluorescents. Will be 8ft by 3 ft.

Thank you!

I think you're on the right track! Keep us posted on what you go with!

 

[Markw84]

I have obsessed about this same setup for Months! I even begged Tom to make me the same, but he's so busy. It has 4 basking lights-- I think. But my Animal Plastics enclosure will be black PVC, so I'm thinking it will be dark-- even with 4 spots. Was thinking of a combo of MVB and fluorescents. Will be 8ft by 3 ft.

Thank you!

That 8 x 3 x 2 Animal Plastics cage is exactly the size I built and use. I really like the looks of it from their website but it has little detail. can you please post great pictures of it when you receive it? Including assembly needed and how the sides are attached? How thick the panels are and how they are insulated if they are? And how much one weighs?

Thank you! I think it costs me almost that much to build one! $675 sounds pretty reasonable for an enclosure that size.

 

[Markw84]

But my Animal Plastics enclosure will be black PVC, so I'm thinking it will be dark-- even with 4 spots.

Shaif

According to their website - It does come in white. You don't have to go black.

 

[Shaif]

Shaif

Not sure how much detail you're after, but since you are doing an 8 foot enclosure the same dimensions of mine, here is a post I did on how I set the lighting up in mine. It is very similar to what @Tom uses with some added learnings about light. If yours is enclosed, I really don't see how you can accomplish all you need with anything much different than this...


If you have an enclosed chamber, I think you will find it impossible to use a MVB without overheating. So most have gone with fluorescent tubes for lighting. So I will have ambient fluorescent tubes for part of my lighting coupled with a regular incandescent FLOOD bulb. (Not SPOT!) The flood bulb also provides the heat for basking. I add to that another fluorescent that is a UVB producing bulb. Your CHE should be on a thermostat and is used solely to maintain the minimum ambient temperature in your enclosure.

With fluorescents, I strive to create a better "natural sunlight" look as possible, so I use a bit more high-end fluorescent tubes from the hardware or home improvement stores. The cheaper bulbs normally will have serious color issues that do not produce a more "natural" light at all. ( I am experimenting with LEDs as well, but really need to be careful as the cheaper ones have horrible colors. But you can get ones with extremely good color balanced light, but they are more expensive.) So with fluorescents, I have gone towards the "daylight" 5000K to 5500K bulbs. In that range, a better bulb will normally have a CRI over 90. I believe the CRI (Color Rendering Index) of a bulb is an important consideration since tortoises are so visual in their behaviors and feeding. A 6000K bulb or higher will be more blue-white and the reds start merging with the oranges as that part of the spectrum is poorly covered in those bulbs. But by adding the incandescent flood, that will add back that part of the spectrum as standard incandescents have CRI's over 95. A good UVB tube and fixture, then completes the lighting setup adding the needed UVB, UVA parts of the spectrum.

SO what do I believe the best setup to provide all this? This is what I use in my 3 foot x 8 foot enclosed, insulated chambers.
2 - 100 watt CHE both wired to the same thermostat set to 81f with probe at the coolest part of the enclosure.
1 - double 4 foot T-5 fluorescent fixture with two daylight 5500K, 92 CRI tubes. On a timer - on for 14 hours a day.
2 - 65 watt incandescent FLOOD bulbs on the same timer as the Fluorescent fixture above. Also, from the timer through a thermostat set to 90f.
1 - 4 foot T5 HO 12% UVB light with reflector fixture on a timer on 5 hours a day 10AM to 3PM.

My chambers will overheat if I do not put the incandescent floods on a thermostat. Since I have the ambient lighting with the fluorescents as bright, I do not mind, in fact I like the basking floods going on and off a few times throughout the day. Just like some clouds blocking the sun part of the day in their home environment in the rainy season when they are most active and growing.

The UVB is not needed for 14 hours, and on a 5 hour cycle will then last much longer and probably not need replacing the bulb for at least 2 years or more. The double fluorescents create the ambient light and are pretty inexpensive.

I center the 4 foot fluorescents 12" apart in the chamber and mount the two floods between them. The floods are about 2 feet apart. This leaves a light gradient towards both ends of the chamber. Your tortoise will appreciate the "darker corners" and mine rest there under plants. So don't try to cover the entire 8 feet with lights! I also have the CHE's mounted, centered front to back 18" from each side.

I also use 2 - 4" x 12" and another 2 - 6" round clay pots planted with overhanging plants for cover in addition to a hide in each end. I think this is vital as tortoises would normally spend a majority of their time hiding under a bush or in a burrow, then coming out to bask and eat. So this gives them all those variables.

I have hero worship for you, Mark! This is exactly what I was hoping for and is so so helpful! I will copy this exactly, if you don't mind.

I have some minor questions for you:
Have you measured the UV rays emitted from your bulbs? I just need to be sure it's enough, as my torts will not be outside much of the year.
Have you ever looked at the 70watt Megaray MVB? It doesn't get as hot, and it gives me brilliant readings from the solarmeter. My small fluorescent (Reptisun T5 HO) has dismal readings, so I was nervous of fluorescents.

Again, this help is so appreciated. If you don't mind sharing the names and brands of your bulbs/fixtures, I can buy the items and send to the AP company to get them installed.

THANK YOU!

 

[Shaif]

That 8 x 3 x 2 Animal Plastics cage is exactly the size I built and use. I really like the looks of it from their website but it has little detail. can you please post great pictures of it when you receive it? Including assembly needed and how the sides are attached? How thick the panels are and how they are insulated if they are? And how much one weighs?

Thank you! I think it costs me almost that much to build one! $675 sounds pretty reasonable for an enclosure that size.

 

[Shaif]

I thought the price was pretty good too. But then I started modifying it. I asked them to add hinge doors to the top and more viewing from above. Then I asked for extra bulb fixtures etc. My cost now is $936 with just 2 flood housings and 2 standard 18 inch fluorescents. By the time I'm done, I'm guessing I'll be upwards of 1K.

But I will ABSOLUTELY post many, many pics of the units and my thoughts about it as soon as it comes. I'm looking at several months lag time. Hoping for June.

 

[Shaif]

Shaif

According to their website - It does come in white. You don't have to go black.

Absolutely correct. But I have never seen either unit in real life, and I'm thinking black might look a bit more sleek. Since it's a giant unit that will be in my home (likely in my home office), I was hoping for something that looks sharp. Don't be alarmed--my home office is very quiet. But the functionality of the unit is most important. Do you think the white would be better? Black might keep heat better also....Not sure though. All the units are insulated.

 

[Prognathodon]

Unless you've ordered extra insulation the insulation properties of AP enclosures come from the material they're made of - 1/2" thick controlled-density PVC. But they do hold heat/humidity well.

We went with white for our two stacks for the snakes, as we didn't want an 8-ft by 7-ft wall of black sucking up all the light at that end of the living room. OTOH, the white shows dirt wonderfully. My husband assembled 5 AP units in one day with help from our adult son, and then we (re-) built the stacks (6 AP and one oddball) the next, which included installing heat and lights.

If you're worried about over-heating, how about LEDs for general lighting? We use aquarium lights, which are designed to retro-fit into existing hoods, so they just screw into the enclosure ceiling, and we drill a hole for the cord (the CPVC is easy to drill). And they're designed for a humid environment, so no worries about overspray when misting the snakes that need it, they don't get hot enough to burn, energy-efficient, and long life.

 

[Markw84]

This is exactly what I was hoping for and is so so helpful! I will copy this exactly, if you don't mind.

I have some minor questions for you:
Have you measured the UV rays emitted from your bulbs? I just need to be sure it's enough, as my torts will not be outside much of the year.
Have you ever looked at the 70watt Megaray MVB? It doesn't get as hot, and it gives me brilliant readings from the solarmeter. My small fluorescent (Reptisun T5 HO) has dismal readings, so I was nervous of fluorescents.

Again, this help is so appreciated. If you don't mind sharing the names and brands of your bulbs/fixtures, I can buy the items and send to the AP company to get them installed.

THANK YOU!

I use the light and fixture combo from lightyourreptiles.com. This one = http://www.lightyourreptiles.com/46-t-5-ho-fixture-high-output-with-arcadia-d3-12-ho-bulb/
I Hang it inside right at the top of the enclosure. I just went out for you to measure the UV with my solarmeter. I have two chambers exactly alike. The one that has been running for 9 1/2 months now has a reading of 4.5 at tortoise height. The other has been running about 3 months now and has a reading of 4.5. With it on just 5 hrs a day, I fully expect it will give me great reading for at least two years and very likely more.

Perhaps you haven't seen the post I did on building that first chamber. You might find it interesting.

Our new Closed Chamber for our new group of Tortoises.

I don't have direct experience with the Megaray, but all MVB overheat my chamber very quickly. As I indicated in my setup, the incandescent basking floods I use at 65 watts also overheat my enclosure, even this time of year when the garage they are in is 55f - 60f. I also am seeing reports from others that by solarmeter measurements, the MVB are seeming to drop dramatically in their UV readings within as little as 3-4 months.

As you are seeing, the challenge with creating the proper climate in captivity indoors, is controlling light, heat, and humidity as all are interrelated. @Tom did such a great job of figuring this out for us all with his closed chambers, and I think anyone trying to duplicate that success runs into the same issues he lines out and solved. You have to keep the humidity up - so it has to be enclosed. It has to maintain 80F ambient, so you have to heat, but the more you heat, the more it dries the air. So you need to insulate and make it as good as possible at retaining what heat it has. This also makes it very energy efficient. but you have to have basking heat which adds to the heat issue. Fluorescents and LED fixtures also add heat to the enclosure. Incandescents and MVB add considerable heat. If you try to cool it back down, with venting, you loose the humidity. I can't imagine making this all work with a MVB!

I also really like that the wide light pattern and spectrum of the combined fluorescents makes growing plants in the enclosure WAAAYYY easier. I have pothos ivy and a small-leafed coleus that grows and spills over the sides of the containers. The tortoises love to sit under this overhanging growth, still getting some reflected UVB - but best yet - when I mist, the plants stay wet quite a long time and the tortoises' shell pick up that moisture from the undersides of the plants they push into. I personally believe that is one of the fundamental factors limiting pyramiding - allowing newly formed keratin growth to absorb moisture and avoid drying out. I can imagine in their native habitat, they would always be pushing through grass and under bushes that are wet from the monsoon rains far after the rain has stopped for the day. Or from morning dew.

So... food for thought at least!

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

four foot T5H0 fixtures are really 46.5 inches, will that work? Two or three of these throw much heat. Any additional heat you may need could be provided by a heat panel like these http://www.reptilebasics.com/rbi-radiant-heat-panels on a thermostat.

Which AP cage did you get?

 

[Shaif]

Thank you so very much. I'll ditch the MVB and follow this pattern.

Mark-- I did see (and love) your enclosure. It's beautiful.

I'll need to adjust the sizes of the tubes a bit. There is a structural support that needs to be in the center top panel of the cage, so the 4ft bulbs will be too long. I'll get as close to that as I can though.

Will- I decided on the T70 cage. With modifications, it will be a bit over $1000.



Again, this help is truly appreciated!

 

[Shaif]

They have 36 inch setups of the same bulbs. If I do two of those, I'll have a bit of a gap. Perhaps I can put the flood lights near the gap in the center.

Would that work?

 

[Shaif]

I use the light and fixture combo from lightyourreptiles.com. This one = http://www.lightyourreptiles.com/46-t-5-ho-fixture-high-output-with-arcadia-d3-12-ho-bulb/
I Hang it inside right at the top of the enclosure. I just went out for you to measure the UV with my solarmeter. I have two chambers exactly alike. The one that has been running for 9 1/2 months now has a reading of 4.5 at tortoise height. The other has been running about 3 months now and has a reading of 4.5. With it on just 5 hrs a day, I fully expect it will give me great reading for at least two years and very likely more.

Perhaps you haven't seen the post I did on building that first chamber. You might find it interesting.

Our new Closed Chamber for our new group of Tortoises.

I don't have direct experience with the Megaray, but all MVB overheat my chamber very quickly. As I indicated in my setup, the incandescent basking floods I use at 65 watts also overheat my enclosure, even this time of year when the garage they are in is 55f - 60f. I also am seeing reports from others that by solarmeter measurements, the MVB are seeming to drop dramatically in their UV readings within as little as 3-4 months.

As you are seeing, the challenge with creating the proper climate in captivity indoors, is controlling light, heat, and humidity as all are interrelated. @Tom did such a great job of figuring this out for us all with his closed chambers, and I think anyone trying to duplicate that success runs into the same issues he lines out and solved. You have to keep the humidity up - so it has to be enclosed. It has to maintain 80F ambient, so you have to heat, but the more you heat, the more it dries the air. So you need to insulate and make it as good as possible at retaining what heat it has. This also makes it very energy efficient. but you have to have basking heat which adds to the heat issue. Fluorescents and LED fixtures also add heat to the enclosure. Incandescents and MVB add considerable heat. If you try to cool it back down, with venting, you loose the humidity. I can't imagine making this all work with a MVB!

I also really like that the wide light pattern and spectrum of the combined fluorescents makes growing plants in the enclosure WAAAYYY easier. I have pothos ivy and a small-leafed coleus that grows and spills over the sides of the containers. The tortoises love to sit under this overhanging growth, still getting some reflected UVB - but best yet - when I mist, the plants stay wet quite a long time and the tortoises' shell pick up that moisture from the undersides of the plants they push into. I personally believe that is one of the fundamental factors limiting pyramiding - allowing newly formed keratin growth to absorb moisture and avoid drying out. I can imagine in their native habitat, they would always be pushing through grass and under bushes that are wet from the monsoon rains far after the rain has stopped for the day. Or from morning dew.

So... food for thought at least!

Sorry to be a pest, but I want to make sure I get this absolutely correct. The link to light your reptiles shows a double unit-- a reg fluorescent bulb and a 12% bulb. Do you have 4 of these? Doubled on each side?

Or do you put 2 reg fluorescents on one fixture with an additional single fixture for your uvb?

Thank you again-- and sorry to be slow about this.

 

[Markw84]

Shaif

Not being a pest at all. I'm glad you're being so careful to get it exactly as you feel will work the best.

Sorry if I linked the wrong fixture. The correct one comes up for me with that link. I use the single 46" with mirror reflector.

And I am not trying to say this is the only way to do this right. I am simply sharing what I have found gets the best results for me considering, Heat, proper UVB, and Lighting - that seems to get the best behaviors and growth from the tortoises.

For UVB, I use the single, 46" T5 12% HO with mirror reflector.
For Ambient light I use a double T5 Fluorescent fixture from Lowes with two 5500K 90+CRI tubes.
For Basking I use two 65 watt standard incandescent flood bulbs in a dome fixture
For Heat I use two 100 watt CHE in 10.5" brooder lamps.

 

[Yvonne G]

Shaif

Not being a pest at all. I'm glad you're being so careful to get it exactly as you feel will work the best.

Sorry if I linked the wrong fixture. The correct one comes up for me with that link. I use the single 46" with mirror reflector.

And I am not trying to say this is the only way to do this right. I am simply sharing what I have found gets the best results for me considering, Heat, proper UVB, and Lighting - that seems to get the best behaviors and growth from the tortoises.

For UVB, I use the single, 46" T5 12% HO with mirror reflector.
For Ambient light I use a double T5 Fluorescent fixture from Lowes with two 5500K 90+CRI tubes.
For Basking I use two 65 watt standard incandescent flood bulbs in a dome fixture
For Heat I use two 100 watt CHE in 10.5" brooder lamps.

View attachment 194338

Only thing missing for future edification is the measurements of the outside walls.