Force Feeding ???? ...Anyone

[Granolagal]

Sooooo, I am wondering if I should be feeling nervous that nobody chose to respond to my post about Petrie?

I did in fact take her to the vet today. He turned out to have an amazing knowledge of tortoises and is raising some redfoots of his own. He gave me some interesting insights and is 'tight' with several herpy people..like the gent that runs the Cincinnati? reptile portion of the zoo.

Aaany way it turned out that Petrie is very dehydrated probably due to some kind of infection. I brought in a stool sample that I discovered today and what I thought was some puss in it turned out to be some intestinal lining..not cool. He did give her a fourteen day antibiotic and gave me some tips of how to entice her into eating. He also gave me some syringes in order to force feed her??? I attempted some baby food when we got home but frankly have no clue of how to get her to open her mouth. Arrggg Any suggestions of how to do this safely would be really really appreciated.

Carley

 

[Isa]

I am sorry but I cant help you with force feeding.

I am glad you found a good herp vet, does he know what kind of infection Petrie has?

Petrie is lucky to have a parent that take care of her as you do! Good luck to both of you and keep us updated please

 

[Yvonne G]

You can use an orange stick to open the mouth. (an orange stick is what manicurists use to push down your cuticles) You hold the tortoise's head between your thumb and index finger, just behind the jaw, then pry open the mouth with the orange stick, or something firm but soft. It sometimes requires three hands. Be careful when you put the food into the mouth that you don't cause the tortoise to aspirate the food. Once I get the mouth open I let the stick stay laying across the lower beak, to keep the mouth open, then I use an eye dropper and squirt some food into the mouth. If you feel you have to force feed, the best way is for the vet to insert a feeding tube. But tortoises can go for a very long time without eating. It is my opinion that you should NOT try to force feed, and wait a while until the antibiotic does its stuff. Just be sure to soak the tortoise for a half hour or so every day. If you want to add liquid bird vitamins or Gerber baby food to the soaking water, that would be a good thing.

Yvonne

 

[terrypin]

hi please dont attempt force feeding this little hatchling it sounds very much like it has become dehydrated and the larger tortoise is getting to the food first .i think your spot on making fresh water available at all times some dont drink in the bath particularly hermans and will often look for a drink just after you remove them from the bath.do you know what the humidity is in their living area if the environment is very dry they may well need a warm humid hide to retire to .hermans are hardy adaptable tortoises but when small like all tortoises can suffer from dehydration very quickly.what is it's scl and weight at the moment please.i would bath this little one just before you feed it this may encourage it to eat and a second soak later in the day wont hurt either.have you seen it pass any urich acid (white stuff)if so it should be of a creamy consistency ,if not i suspect hard stnes of it have formed and this may be why its not eating.
terry

 

[egyptiandan]

Hi Carley,
I must have missed your other posts I went back and read them and I agree with Yvonne and Terry about not force feeding. She is very small at 14g, so just set her up alone, keep her warm (at least 86F 24/7) while your giving the antibiotics. Water her twice a day, the bird vitamins (Vitasol) would be great to use in the water for each soak. Just let her try to get her legs under her. Being alone will help reduce her stress levels and help her throw this infection.
Keep us updated as to how she's doing.

Danny

 

[Granolagal]

Hi guys...no worries about force feeding. I completely agree with you all. I tried one morning and ended up in tears. It felt wrong and I wanted to wait until the antibiotics started taking effect before I approached the situation more aggresively. The vet gave her an antibiotic that is a 14 day antibiotic and he said that I wouldn't be seeing any results for at least 48 hours. I requested that he give me antibiotics for the other little one Crush, even though he was still moving and eating a bit his weight and energy levels were definitely not what they were. I had to inject it myself when I got home and it was absolutely terrible! The two little guys came from the same batch and are definitely not housed with the bigger one Zippy (or there would definitely be NO food for them!! He is piggy piggy). They are housed together but are of a similar size and there is definitely no competition for anything between them. They actully entice each other to eat..if one is eating the other usually follows..if they are both not eating..I have a problem. I have chosen to soak them with pedialyte in their water to help with the dehydration and there is some also in their water dish. They are on the mend yayayayaya....

Petrie has gained just over a gram..Crush unfortunately is still losing

He does eat at least a little every day and is still moving..though not as much as he used to...am hoping that it will just be a matter of time.

The vet though that perhaps they had been too cold right after they were born and that contributed to the unfrindly bacterias and sloughing off of stomach lining. I think perhaps they came from a turtle/tortoise mill. I didn't feel entirely confident in their health when I purchased them. I purchased them from a guy that I met at a reptile show and his brother brought them by train (only a couple of hours ride) to where I could get them. He informed me that they had been hibernated directly after they were born and they were probably over a year old????? WHAT??? I immediately contacted the seller and questioned him about it. He said that this is common practise for breeders to put turtles not tortoises into a brumation period so that they don't have to feed hundreds of mouths while waiting for sales. red light red light...and that his brother was confused as he just started training them. Of course by this time I was totally in love with the lil guys and just hoped for the best

Thanks to everyone

ps ...how does one create a humid hide without creating mould???

I will keep you updated..and no worries at all Danny..there is only so much you can read

Carley

 

[Granolagal]

hi please dont attempt force feeding this little hatchling it sounds very much like it has become dehydrated and the larger tortoise is getting to the food first .i think your spot on making fresh water available at all times some dont drink in the bath particularly hermans and will often look for a drink just after you remove them from the bath.do you know what the humidity is in their living area if the environment is very dry they may well need a warm humid hide to retire to .hermans are hardy adaptable tortoises but when small like all tortoises can suffer from dehydration very quickly.what is it's scl and weight at the moment please.i would bath this little one just before you feed it this may encourage it to eat and a second soak later in the day wont hurt either.have you seen it pass any urich acid (white stuff)if so it should be of a creamy consistency ,if not i suspect hard stnes of it have formed and this may be why its not eating.
terry

Thank you for the advice Terry!

With regards to length and weight: Crush is currently 18.7g 45.4mm
Petrie is 15.6g and 40.5mm.

The humidity in their home is around 45% according to the hygrometer.

I have asked in a few posts about humid hides and am still patiently awaiting an answer
as I was concerned with using aspen that there would be less humidity. I have eco earth that I was going to put their hides on but was wondering if the areas should be misted..and if so would that cause mould?

I have seen no evidence of urates. I am not sure what not seeing them means. What is the procedure for helping her to pass them if they are stones. The vet looked at her insides to make sure that there was no impaction and none were visible. I would think that these stones would have probably been visible if they were there??

thanks again Terry any advice is welcomed and valued.

btw I re-read my previous post it was Petrie's inrestinal not stomach lining that was sloughing off. I wrote it in a hurry at work

 

[evin]

you can buy flavorless pedialyte from wal mart or a store along those lines and add it to thier soaking water

 

[Tim/Robin]

I have asked in a few posts about humid hides and am still patiently awaiting an answer
as I was concerned with using aspen that there would be less humidity. I have eco earth that I was going to put their hides on but was wondering if the areas should be misted..and if so would that cause mould?

Agree that aspen would create less humidity in that area that Eco Earth. We use Eco Earth in the enclosure for our Red Foot torts and they have a mister system that keeps high moisture all the time. We have never seen any sign of mold. Of course mold in Idaho is not common anyway.

As for humid hides, the Eco Earth underneath the hide seems a fine idea. You could soak the substrate first, as it will retain moisture for days. Some people create a hide out of a terra cotta planter pot and glue a sponge inside or place one on top that gets moistened regularly. The terra cotta acts like a sponge and absorbs from the sponge, to distribute the moisture throughout the hide. Hope that gives you an idea to start with.

 

[terrypin]

hi thats great advise for a humid hide i would ensure it is in the warmer half of your pen ,warm and humid is good cold is bad.i have a large slate/tile directly beneath the basking light and my hatchlings spend a lot of time under there where it is warm and humid .aspen is excellent assubstrate for the main area but can cause dehydration so ensure yours have regular (daily) baths and also accessto water bowls they can get right in for a soak whenever they want.your weight to length ratio doesnt sound to bad for hatchlings but if these are a year old then their shells should have thickened they should be a little heavier.45% humidity i would say was a bare minimum mine are about 60% even my leopards i dont see any problems with them ,i have just hatched 19 hermans and they are like a hoard of locusts i have to restrict their food or they would eat until they pop.
terry

 

[Granolagal]

Thank you for all of your great advice and sentiments everyone! ...a little puzzled about how to stick a sponge to the top of a terracotta pot ...but it is a brilliant idea.

I am still extremely worried about them and am hoping to see them eat like'they are going to pop' again soon. I would love to see a picture of your hatchlings Terry

I just adore my guys and am trying to remain positive...

keep your fingers crossed for them..

 

[terrypin]

Thank you for all of your great advice and sentiments everyone! ...a little puzzled about how to stick a sponge to the top of a terracotta pot ...but it is a brilliant idea.

I am still extremely worried about them and am hoping to see them eat like'they are going to pop' again soon. I would love to see a picture of your hatchlings Terry

I just adore my guys and am trying to remain positive...

keep your fingers crossed for them..

hi i really hope things get better for yours ,in answer to one question i use a little plastic hut for my leopards hatchlings humid hide what i have done is drilled a couple of small holes in the roof and cable tied a rolled up wash cloth to the ceiling ,i spray it when i get home from work so it has time to warm up before the lights go off at night. thanksfor your interest in my hermans hatchlings it doesnt take much to persuade me to post pictures,this is of 18 just before the last one hatched 6 of these are 2nd generation from a girl i bred myself.
terry

 

[Crazy1]

Terry your babies are so sweet.
I hot glued my sponge to the top of my pot. But with it being wet it tends to lose its adhesion and you have to reglue it. I like the idea of using ties through the whole of the pot to attach the sponge though Thanks for the idea.

 

[Granolagal]

Hee hee

Thank you so much Terry! They are beautiful. They remind me of my little 'Crush' Congratulations...you must be really proud. The little guys totally pigged out today, it made my cry I was so delighted. Petrie is not as active as I would like her to be...am trying to be patient and hopeful I am gonna try to attach a pic of her..she seems so dark compared to all of the other baby hermann's that I have seen..is it common for them to look like she does? She is the littlest one at the front. Thanks again for sharing!

Carley

 

[terrypin]

Hee hee

Thank you so much Terry! They are beautiful. They remind me of my little 'Crush' Congratulations...you must be really proud. The little guys totally pigged out today, it made my cry I was so delighted. Petrie is not as active as I would like her to be...am trying to be patient and hopeful I am gonna try to attach a pic of her..she seems so dark compared to all of the other baby hermann's that I have seen..is it common for them to look like she does? She is the littlest one at the front. Thanks again for sharing!

Carley

hi they are gorgeous what a lovely dark colour all my adults are pale coloured i guess it depends on them what sort of hatchlings you get.i hope yours continue to improve .
terry

 

[Ozric]

Hi Carley, this is just about the humidity question. I've done a lot of asking around in relation to humidity over the past six months or so.

Most Hermann keepers think it's best to at least offer a humid hide when the tortoise is indoors. Outdoors, at least where I am in the UK, humidity isn't an issue. But indoors they can get too dry. Lots of people recommend a humid hide being available with up to 70% humidity in it. If the tortoise is on tortoise table or similar then especially under lamps, the humidity will tend to be too low for hatchlings and juveniles especially, if we don't do anything to incease it.

One very easy way to make ahumid hide is to get a plastic pot or container and make some little holes in it and a bigger one for a door, then drape a damp cloth or sponge over the top.

There is no way you can do any harm offering a humid hide. If its not good for your tort, he won't stay in it. Bear in mind, as Terry says, cold and damp is not good, so don't leave your torts in a cold wet hide overnight. Lots of people keep their tortoises warmer than usual during reatment and recovery. Best wishes, Jonathan

 

[Scumdeth]

I use SPHAGNUM MOSS for my humid hides in my Redfoot tort table, it resists mould and insects , it keeps the humidity at 90 %. Perfect stuff!!!!!!
Good Luck!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Ozric]

I agree with Scumdeth about the sphagnum moss. Its plentiful where I live and even if it gets totally dried out you can easily wet it and its good as new. This is a natural material, and not harmful to tortoises. Jonathan

 

[pebbles mom]

Granolagirl ... that is an AWESOME picture !!

Off the subject but I just had to tell you.

 

[turtlemom]

Hi Carley,
Just wondering how Petrie and Crush are doing? Hope they are still improving!

Donna