Forum differences.....

jeff kushner

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Most of the folks here who "know me", know that I'm well-aged at 63.

My little bit street cred;
I built my first computer in my 20's with a 8088 chip, my next with the 8086.
Before the Internet, we used Bulletin boards to communicate via message with people all over the world., along with 150 then 300 baud modems. A single 640x480(State of the art at the time) picture took several hours to obtain so it encouraged leaving worded messages only. The only people doing this were the "Bleeding edge" folks with the latest & greatest stuff. We all wrote our own Config.sys and Executable files....remember those? We had to because some equipment and software would only run in specific combinations with specific settings, all self-taught by trying different combos. I have watched and been part of each step in the way information is shared in the world, or not.

I am a true believer in personal freedom ........but it goes both ways, you also hold yourself accountable, no one else should need to do it for you.
I have been a member of well over 3 or 4 dozen forums over the years since that 1st 8088 and lurked on countless more. Most of course have been related to my hobbies, writing politics, building 2 stroke engines and restoring vintage bikes. Or, whatever whim I'm investigating (this week was 3D printers)...lol

I have seen all types of people on forums and have met many, many forum friends over the years. Some forums are designed to provide information and often members there will terse & short but to the point in many cases. Despite nearly 35 years of the "Net, folks still don't comprehend that body language and sarcasm don't transcribe with the typed word. We've all watched keyboard-imagined Warriors say things to one another decent folks wouldn't. Some forums allow for it and some do not.

In some forums, the older members will not reach out to help newer folks, waiting instead for the new guys struggling, to ask for help. In some forums, especially engine-related forums, "knowledge" is treated as a secret to be taken to the grave. Some forums are so filled with incorrect information that in my mind, they actually pose a threat to people's safety, especially for the massive number of stupid people we seem to have today. Maybe we should get rid of safety labels as that comic suggested.....it would remove quite a few......lol

Some forums seem to be a little more.....the folks are a little more generous with their time, the talent is there, folks self-moderate as they should......those are the ones I enjoy & the kind of people I like, they enjoy those kind too...

As we all know, "News" isn't evenly covered anymore. What you read and see online is truly controlled by 7 firms, Seven. I'm not getting into any of that here.....

The point I am making is that good forums, the really good ones are a breath of fresh air for those well read......

Many forums have begun to now censor words as you post and in many cases, lose the meaning of the sentence. I do not remain on those forums, regardless of how much I may have liked it......I cannot contribute to written censorship, ever.

I hope this one doesn't go that way...............like I tell my Kerry..............."I like hanging around with you"


jeff
 

Maro2Bear

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Hey Jeff, good to see that you too survived the swath of the tornado that came through here.

I used to belong to a Figs Forum…most everyone was nice, played well, shared ideas how to grow better figs, etc. but… a few started to bicker & bicker & name call. The moderator eventually closed it down - just too much bickering! On a fig forum, no less.

I think @Josh and the TFO moderators do a great job at keeping this forum on the up n up.

Ps…I too dabbled early on with executables and FORTRAN punch cards. Even had an account on the ARPA.NET.

Have a great weekend. Weather is perfect in MD today.
 

Jan A

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Boulder, CO
Most of the folks here who "know me", know that I'm well-aged at 63.

My little bit street cred;
I built my first computer in my 20's with a 8088 chip, my next with the 8086.
Before the Internet, we used Bulletin boards to communicate via message with people all over the world., along with 150 then 300 baud modems. A single 640x480(State of the art at the time) picture took several hours to obtain so it encouraged leaving worded messages only. The only people doing this were the "Bleeding edge" folks with the latest & greatest stuff. We all wrote our own Config.sys and Executable files....remember those? We had to because some equipment and software would only run in specific combinations with specific settings, all self-taught by trying different combos. I have watched and been part of each step in the way information is shared in the world, or not.

I am a true believer in personal freedom ........but it goes both ways, you also hold yourself accountable, no one else should need to do it for you.
I have been a member of well over 3 or 4 dozen forums over the years since that 1st 8088 and lurked on countless more. Most of course have been related to my hobbies, writing politics, building 2 stroke engines and restoring vintage bikes. Or, whatever whim I'm investigating (this week was 3D printers)...lol

I have seen all types of people on forums and have met many, many forum friends over the years. Some forums are designed to provide information and often members there will terse & short but to the point in many cases. Despite nearly 35 years of the "Net, folks still don't comprehend that body language and sarcasm don't transcribe with the typed word. We've all watched keyboard-imagined Warriors say things to one another decent folks wouldn't. Some forums allow for it and some do not.

In some forums, the older members will not reach out to help newer folks, waiting instead for the new guys struggling, to ask for help. In some forums, especially engine-related forums, "knowledge" is treated as a secret to be taken to the grave. Some forums are so filled with incorrect information that in my mind, they actually pose a threat to people's safety, especially for the massive number of stupid people we seem to have today. Maybe we should get rid of safety labels as that comic suggested.....it would remove quite a few......lol

Some forums seem to be a little more.....the folks are a little more generous with their time, the talent is there, folks self-moderate as they should......those are the ones I enjoy & the kind of people I like, they enjoy those kind too...

As we all know, "News" isn't evenly covered anymore. What you read and see online is truly controlled by 7 firms, Seven. I'm not getting into any of that here.....

The point I am making is that good forums, the really good ones are a breath of fresh air for those well read......

Many forums have begun to now censor words as you post and in many cases, lose the meaning of the sentence. I do not remain on those forums, regardless of how much I may have liked it......I cannot contribute to written censorship, ever.

I hope this one doesn't go that way...............like I tell my Kerry..............."I like hanging around with you"


jeff
I have a couple of places I go for political chats. I was just super amazed when I joined the NextDoor app about a month ago & almost the first thing I saw was "How to report a moderator".

Not knowing any better, I made a comment on a discussion on COVID, & got blocked. A moderator later intervened & explained. I get it...it's supposed to be about happenings in the neighborhood, just like things here are supposed to be about torts & turtles.

What is happening everywhere absolutely scares me to death: speech that is liked is not blocked, but speech that is not liked is blocked & will not be tolerated. That goes to the very essence of out First Amendment--to protect speech we do not like. You will not find that protection anywhere but in America--at least the America I knew.

If we all thought alike, had the same experiences & did the same thing day in & day out, we'd have nothing to discuss or nothing to learn from each other. I love it here. I learn every day.

Don't stop.
 

jeff kushner

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North of Annapolis
Have you seen something to make you think this one is going that way? I haven't.
Not a thing Tom, thankfully. There are super admins here as well as super-talented members.

I'm an extrovert so saying what wouldn't be good, to make others aware of "the creep" isn't always a bad thing!

I'm just not the guy that will watch others be taken and not say anything till they come for me....nah, that didn't work out well for my relatives. A Expedition forum I belong to just went to full-censored material through the hosting IP. Really? A truck forum where guys and gals talk about what, trucks? It's happening, just a fyi.....

jeff
 

jeff kushner

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Joined
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Messages
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Location (City and/or State)
North of Annapolis
Hey Jeff, good to see that you too survived the swath of the tornado that came through here.

I used to belong to a Figs Forum…most everyone was nice, played well, shared ideas how to grow better figs, etc. but… a few started to bicker & bicker & name call. The moderator eventually closed it down - just too much bickering! On a fig forum, no less.

I think @Josh and the TFO moderators do a great job at keeping this forum on the up n up.

Ps…I too dabbled early on with executables and FORTRAN punch cards. Even had an account on the ARPA.NET.

Have a great weekend. Weather is perfect in MD today.
I have a problem....when I see the TV warnings, I'm not the one to run for the basement but the window to see....luckily it missed me....I'm in the heart of Lake Shore so when the girl from channel 11 told me I was going to die, I went downstairs<LOL>. It rained as hard as I've ever seen it come down though...wow!

Figs huh? My dad had a fig tree after we moved from the apple orchard we had in Ann Arbor.....very cool tree actually and that's coming from an "apple guy"! It got big enough to climb as kids and the fruit was fantastic.....natures bounty, food gifts from God. I always thought that as a kid when we would find some fruit-laden tree.

jeff
 

turtlesteve

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I’m right there with you Jeff. I have found this is THE community for turtles / tortoises that has the right level of moderation and experience to be worth following long term.

I also think a forum structure facilitates productive community; I have other hobbies where forums are universally the go-to place for GOOD info. Always sad to see communities being destroyed by censorship, etc.

The threat is social media, of course. Many people don’t make time to follow a multitude of topic-specific communities and end up using the least common denominator. And those sites do not care about being productive to society in any way. Unfortunately I feel we are slowly losing the battle and I do begrudgingly use social media to communicate with some knowledgeable tortoise people.
 

ZenHerper

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... That goes to the very essence of out First Amendment...
The assertion that website moderation is a violation of the First Amendment is a non sequitor found all over the internet. But websites are not "public spaces", legally speaking.

The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution has nothing to do with privately owned websites or businesses. It only bans the government from curtailing free speech of citizens (among other things).

Of course, one individual's freedom of speech ends where another citizen's nose begins. Therefore a government may abridge citizens from yelling "FIRE!" into a crowd when there is no actual fire. Your boss may be curtailed from psychologically harassing you by calling you a pejorative on the job.

Government employees who use social media accounts for government business are legally bound by the First Amendment.

Website moderators may entirely and legally curtail speech according to a private website's TOS. They may also entirely and legally ban users who don't adhere to the site's TOS.

When you "join" a website, you actually enter into a legal contract with the site. If you don't like the Terms of Service, don't agree to the contract.

Discussing a restrictive TOS or its enforcement is a totally separate thing from concerns about the First Amendment.
 

jsheffield

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I’m often puzzled why one online gathering place works while another does not… I think it has something to do with some places facilitating communication without community.

My feeling is that TFO and a few other places along with a couple of groups on FB, manage to foster both for tortoise-ing… I’m grateful for the people I’ve met here and the things I’m learning.

Jamie
 

turtlesteve

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Zenherper,

Point taken, but I have a couple polite counter points:

1. Censorship by private entities can be morally wrong, even if not illegal. This is how I interpreted Jan’s comment. It does go against the intent, or “essence” of the first amendment.

2. Social media companies get an enormous liability shield (section 230) from the government. This is functionally a subsidy that these sites could hardly exist without. Why shouldn’t such a subsidy be contingent on respecting free speech?
 

ZenHerper

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Zenherper,

Point taken, but I have a couple polite counter points:

1. Censorship by private entities can be morally wrong, even if not illegal. This is how I interpreted Jan’s comment. It does go against the intent, or “essence” of the first amendment.

2. Social media companies get an enormous liability shield (section 230) from the government. This is functionally a subsidy that these sites could hardly exist without. Why shouldn’t such a subsidy be contingent on respecting free speech?
But the First Amendment is not essential -- it is actual and quite specific. And it is narrowly directed toward the government. Regardless of how people have misused it in modern times vis-a-vis their hurt innernet feelings. lol

Morality can vary widely at any one specific time - and over time - so it was important to legally codify how a democratic government may behave with regard to citizen's who disagree with its current behaviors/stances/mores. If citizens are peacefully assembled, they may speak.

People with disabilities have certain legal protections...that does not make disabled citizens part of the government.

Code 230 gives certain protections...but it is not global (child porn, forex). Since it is new, it should continue to be shaped and refined.

Want tweaks and outright changes to the law? Research candidates and vote. Let Congress-critters know your views, organize, assemble (peacefully), speak. To the government.

***********************

Again, if a person objects to a site's TOS, they should simply not agree to the contract. If sites don't have traffic, they cannot hope to sustain themselves financially. No one clicks ads, no data to mine and sell, nothing.

Extinction takes care of any real or perceived moral concerns about those venues.

**********************

Bringing the First Amendment into discussions about whether a website is "fair" or "mean" to people is a Straw Man - a logical fallacy. At best it indicates a fundamental misunderstanding of the Constitution and contract law.

Straw Men are often employed intentionally to stall and derail genuinely constructive discussion: to poison an otherwise respectfully social environment.
 

turtlesteve

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But the First Amendment is not essential -- it is actual and quite specific. And it is narrowly directed toward the government. Regardless of how people have misused it in modern times vis-a-vis their hurt innernet feelings. lol
But, there are indeed shades of gray. We do have legal rights to free speech on public university campuses. In some cases institutions are NOT state or government owned, but receive public funding and subsidy - yet still count as "public" universities. So, how much government subsidy does it take to create a "public" space? If the government continues to subsidize internet infrastructure and development, to the eventuality that it becomes a public utility like water & gas, it seems inevitable that constitutional protection on free speech must follow.

Put another way, speech that once took place in public town squares now occurs online, and the current landscape of the internet is such that a few companies have immense power over discourse that would have been protected by the first amendment in historical times, by virtue of the form and location of the discourse.

Again, if a person objects to a site's TOS, they should simply not agree to the contract. If sites don't have traffic, they cannot hope to sustain themselves financially. No one clicks ads, no data to mine and sell, nothing.

Extinction takes care of any real or perceived moral concerns about those venues.

Censorship is usually popular; majorities have long used the force of government to silence and oppress minorities. The first amendment protects unpopular speech as well. The idea that social media companies are harmed by censoring content is laughable, as a minority of users rejecting the TOS is inconsequential to them.

Bringing the First Amendment into discussions about whether a website is "fair" or "mean" to people is a Straw Man - a logical fallacy. At best it indicates a fundamental misunderstanding of the Constitution and contract law.

This isn't a straw man argument at all, it's absolutely relevant considering modern society and the failure of congress (or the supreme court) to recognize and define what constitutes a public space online. I do not think the topic is nearly so black and white.
 

Yvonne G

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I'm on my Kindle and haven't yet figured out how to copy /paste, but go to the Forum home page and scroll down through Introductions, FAQs, Announcements, Contests. . . and click on Forum Guidelines, paying particular attention to #7, with this current thread in mind.
 

turtlesteve

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I'm on my Kindle and haven't yet figured out how to copy /paste, but go to the Forum home page and scroll down through Introductions, FAQs, Announcements, Contests. . . and click on Forum Guidelines, paying particular attention to #7, with this current thread in mind.

Message received loud & clear. It’s great moderators like you that keep us all in line. I’ll go back to all tortoise, all the time ;)
 

Mrs.Jennifer

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I'm on my Kindle and haven't yet figured out how to copy /paste, but go to the Forum home page and scroll down through Introductions, FAQs, Announcements, Contests. . . and click on Forum Guidelines, paying particular attention to #7, with this current thread in mind.
Duly noted! Thanks for all that our moderators do!
 

Yvonne G

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Message received loud & clear. It’s great moderators like you that keep us all in line. I’ll go back to all tortoise, all the time ;)
Well, we DO have a section for Off Topic Chit Chat, just have to watch the subject matter. And like you see on this thread, there is a bit of leeway (sp?).
 

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