FRIENDLY discussion on taking turtles from the wild

[daniellenc]

Like beating one's head against a wall. But you all must know best.

I extend an olive branch by apologizing for making sweeping generalizations about breeders, and you all continue to jump on my back. So don't worry, if my turtles have a problem that I don't know about (because I can admit when I don't know about something or don't have the absolute truth, unlike some people on this forum who have read a paperback book on turtle care and think they're gurus), I'll just do my best but let the chips fall where they may. Your exclusive club won't be disturbed anymore and you can sit in your pools of self-adulation and moral condemnation. Don't worry, I will watch silently though as you shoot your mouths off to newcomers and each other, and have a chuckle (so will my turtles).

My previous dog was free off of craigslist (ad was up for almost a year and no one wanted a 9 year old GSD mix: the owners were about to euthanize him) and my current dog was $100 from the SPCA, which included spaying, all basic vaccinations, and microchipping, as she had languished in various shelters for over a year, because again, no one wanted an older mixed dog. So I don't need a lecture on the costs of dogs vs turtles, or one in general on proper animal care. You can get a perfectly good pet without spending a lot of money, unless you're getting it for the wrong reasons.

Turtles are all "wild" animals, whether you paid money to a breeder or scooped them up. I've seen plenty of captive-born turtles struggling to get out of their cages. You can pretend they're not wild because you paid for them, if that helps you sleep at night (Budweiser works fine for me though).
Also, maybe someone could work for a private detective agency, because you're so adept at extrapolating data from and analyzing photos. Incidentally that photo I posted was from a 10 year-old flip phone, because I spend a good chunk of money on my turtles' upkeep and not fancy phones. The only time you'll see me in the fresh produce aisle of a real supermarket is for my turts. But I guess I and others like me don't deserve to have them cause we can't or simply don't want to pay breeder fees, reasonable or not. BTW, my turts started eating again the day after they awoke from brumation. Guess I was very negligent in letting them brumate in straw...
Hmmmmmmm, Chicago. I don't think the air pollutants in the urban/suburban environment are appropriate for chelonian lungs, bred or otherwise. To heck with your people feelings, you should move or re-home your turtles. Get the point yet? (Probably not. I'd search through your posts so I can pick apart your turtle enclosure in more detail, but no one appointed me God or Captain Planet. Apparently that's your department)
And I did not name this thread, it got moved from another thread by a moderator because I ignited a firestorm by challenging the group-think that I observed going on there. After watching this forum for months (had an account for 8 months and a whopping 9 posts. Cheesy saying, but you've got two eyes, two ears, and one mouth...), I got tired of reading opinion masquerading as fact and moral imperative, so I stopped restraining my keyboard and responded in a less-than-optimal thread for it.

But regardless, I'll leave you all alone, to your internet and your lousy attitudes.

Adios, I'll make sure the door doesn't hit me in the vent on the way out.

I don't think I understand the animosity? People all disagree from time to time and that's ok and what builds group dynamics. No one is always right or wrong, and some opinions are honestly neither. Take this forum for example- some advocate different substrates, keeping in groups vs. single, there are a ton of opinions on diet, enclosure size, and plenty of other examples where keepers are doing and sharing what is working well for them; and what hasn't. It is up to the individual tort owner to decide what is best for them.

I'm sorry if you felt attacked because many here agree taking in WC animals is harmful to the population but if you look at laws in States where box turtles are indigenous clearly these States agree after seeing a sharp decline of their native species. It is illegal in most States to keep a wild box turtle and many require permits to purchase a CB animal. It would seem to me you as a long time keeper probably have a lot of experience to share. You also could potentially learn something new here which is a win win to me. I also doubt you'd seriously allow your animals to suffer if you needed advice on something you didn't know. You aren't that stubborn!! I don't think people have had poor attitudes but rather expressed themselves passionately because they are genuinely concerned. And your opinion is welcome here whether the majority agree or not.

One distinction I'd like to make is a wild animal is one that was born in the wild. Purchasing a captive bred and born animal is not the same. And you don't maybe agree that CB animals are healthier, easier to maintain, and do better in captivity just a little bit???? For a new keeper acclimating your CB hatchling is not the same as trying to treat and acclimate a WC animal.

 

[wellington]

I think this OP just wants to argue. His title and first post prove that. I'm thinking it might be troll season or the heat is effecting people's brains.
Some people just can't handle getting answers that doesn't justify what they are doing.

 

[Toddrickfl1]

I think it's a full moon?

 

[Jay Bagley]

If I'm really part of an exclusive club, do I get a t-shirt? lol

 

[mark1]

(because I can admit when I don't know about something or don't have the absolute truth, unlike some people on this forum who have read a paperback book on turtle care and think they're gurus)

to me , it seems like it might be you ? i personally don't care what you think of "turtle breeders" the quotation marks being i doubt your definition of a turtle breeder would coincide with mine ............ as far as collecting turtles from the wild for pets , your view is without question wrong and harmful to the long term survival of all species ........ some folks just don't want to hear the truth , they'd rather be right in their own mind ....... if you feel you are correct , debate your point with facts and experience ...... on this one you'll lose , logic trumps illogical with logical people always ......

 

[Toddrickfl1]

Turtlesnobs.com

It does kind of have a ring to it......

 

[Yvonne G]

Let me set something straight. I moved some posts off of a different thread because the posts were getting way off original topic. Rob didn't start the thread, I did. It's just that Rob's post was the first one moved.

I don't think it's being a snob to advocate not taking tortoises from the wild. There are those who advocate not taking tigers from the wild. Snobs? But, to be fair, Rob was talking about OVERDEVELOPMENT being more harmful to the wild populations than people taking them from the wild. Someone made a very good post, but I don't have time to go back and look for it. Basically they said something like it takes a turtle/tortoise a very long time to grow to breeding age. When you take a full grown tortoise out of the wild, you remove a very good part of the tortoise "manufacturing plant." 100 % of baby tortoises don't survive. By removing full grown tortoises from the wild you are limiting the gene pool and causing extinction of that species to come much sooner than it would if we leave the wild tortoises alone.

I think maybe the "snob" portion of the comment referred to us telling people if you can't afford to care for the animal or buy all the supplies needed to keep it healthy, then don't get the animal, or give it to someone who can care for it. I don't think that's snobby at all. Have you not ever watched the Animal Cops type programs? So many people have dogs that are skinny, and tick/flea infested. We have not qualms about telling those types of folks if you can't afford to take care of your dog give it to someone who can. Are we snobs when we say that? Or are we looking out for the health and welfare of the dog.

But I must agree that we have jumped on poor Rob after he apologized. I think that's because most of us tend to reply to a post before reading the whole thread. Don't be put off, Rob. You're an asset to our Forum. We need people with different thoughts than the prevailing thoughts. I'd hate to become known as the cookie cutter forum.

 

[Redfool]

If I'm really part of an exclusive club, do I get a t-shirt? lol

Exclusives like us wear polos, not t-shirts

 

[Len B]

I believe one of the main causes for the demise of the eastern box turtles in the wild is development, Not over development.I saw so many 100s of acres of woodland, marshes and swampy areas destroyed starting in the late 1950s and early 60s with the beginning construction for the US Interstate Highway System. Mainly the Washington Capital Beltway in Maryland, At that time it was interstate 495, now it is mingled with 95, which came later.When the beltway was opened in 1963 new housing developments and shopping centers started popping up everywhere, usually near a beltway interchange to an existing road.There was no regard for what lived there or the future results of the destruction of their habitat. Now when I'm while driving down the road and see a Coming Soon sign (for whatever business it may be) I think about the turtles that are going to be killed when the bulldozers arrive. It would be nice if there was a group that would go and collect the torts and whatever other wildlife they could find to save them. I believe something like this was done a while back concerning the construction of the inter county connector in Montgomery and PG Counties in Md Also last Friday I went out to rt 301 which is 10 miles, On the round trip I saw 2 box turtles one water turtle( either painted or red belly), 2 squirrels and a adult black snake dead on the road.This a country road with no shoulders and the speed limit is 55 so you cant stop to help them across the road and some people can't seem to miss them..

 

[Redfool]

I believe one of the main causes for the demise of the eastern box turtles in the wild is development, Not over development.I saw so many 100s of acres of woodland, marshes and swampy areas destroyed starting in the late 1950s and early 60s with the beginning construction for the US Interstate Highway System. Mainly the Washington Capital Beltway in Maryland, At that time it was interstate 495, now it is mingled with 95, which came later.When the beltway was opened in 1963 new housing developments and shopping centers started popping up everywhere, usually near a beltway interchange to an existing road.There was no regard for what lived there or the future results of the destruction of their habitat. Now when I'm while driving down the road and see a Coming Soon sign (for whatever business it may be) I think about the turtles that are going to be killed when the bulldozers arrive. It would be nice if there was a group that would go and collect the torts and whatever other wildlife they could find to save them. I believe something like this was done a while back concerning the construction of the inter county connector in Montgomery and PG Counties in Md Also last Friday I went out to rt 301 which is 10 miles, On the round trip I saw 2 box turtles one water turtle( either painted or red belly), 2 squirrels and a adult black snake dead on the road.This a country road with no shoulders and the speed limit is 55 so you cant stop to help them across the road and some people can't seem to miss them..

Been a while since I lived up there but I remember along Rock Creek Park and the C&O canal you could always find box turtles on land and painted turtles along the water. That was a long time ago, I assume it’s all paved and concreted now. 301 was really in the sticks.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

There are indeed 'studies' that show collecting box turtles here and there, or even subsidizing box turtle predators (and other turtles species) does in fact impact and reduce, sometime eliminate populations.

I have attended conferences and symposiums off and on for 30 plus years, many of which do not publish proceedings and the authors may be government employees so their work is published as grey literature.

Picking up one or two, here and there - One study correlated the use by native Americans of box turtle shells as 'purses' to the historical traditional tribal area of those people and the dearth of box turtles in that area, which was otherwise perfectly suitable habitat. Another study correlated the opening of a Boy Scout camp with the decline of wood turtles in what had been a long term study site. One biologist lamented at a meeting that well intentioned people picked up and brought to 'rescues' 100's of box turtles in populated areas of Long Island as the wild turtles "must belong to someone".

Subsidized predators - At least one sea turtle researcher has correlated the decline of some nesting beaches successes to TV's. Instead of hunting raccoons as a past time (severe predators of sea turtle babies) the pastime of hunting has been replaced by TV watching. The correlated activity graph was amazing. Sea turtle population in balance with raccoons when raccoon predators were abundant, then people disturb that balance, then hunting raccoons becomes a 'hobby', the sea turtles have a comeback, then hinting as pastime gets put aside for TV's and the sea turtles start declining again. Yeah I know correlation does not prove causation.

In my own quest to find native populations of box turtles I found that sizable undeveloped areas hemmed in by interstates have large populations. A few other conditions need to be met. Why, because animals that prey on box turtle usually have a larger range than the box turtles, which leads them to cross the interstate, and they get run over sooner or later.

Chelonians are on the slow and steady side of the reproduction spectrum, contributing a few surviving off-spring every years over decades. The other end of the spectrum would be animals that spew out many off-spring every year and have short fast lives. So the collection of a few adult females removes many hundred of off-spring over her lifetime, in just one collection event.

These are what make the idea of sustainable harvest a slippery slope for chelonians. It can be done but most collectors don't seem to have the patience for it.

Will, one of the chelonian breeder millionaires (NOT!), Biologist
Kapidolo Farms

 

[daniellenc]

Been a while since I lived up there but I remember along Rock Creek Park and the C&O canal you could always find box turtles on land and painted turtles along the water. That was a long time ago, I assume it’s all paved and concreted now. 301 was really in the sticks.

I live right near the path in rock creek park. Matter of fact I do a lot of foraging there.

 

[Len B]

Been a while since I lived up there but I remember along Rock Creek Park and the C&O canal you could always find box turtles on land and painted turtles along the water. That was a long time ago, I assume it’s all paved and concreted now. 301 was really in the sticks.

I haven't been up there in about 50 years so I wouldn't know what it's like now. Are you old enough to remember Glen Echo when it was an amusement park ? Parts or 301 are still in the sticks, but more people heading either north or south are figuring out it's quicker than setting on 95 in backed up traffic. So more traffic especially on holiday weekends.

 

[Redfool]

I haven’t been in about 45 years. I do remember Glen Echo Amusement Park out by Great Falls and Cabin John. I also used to drag race out off of 301 at Budds Creek Dragway in Mechanicsville.

 

[Len B]

I haven’t been in about 45 years. I do remember Glen Echo Amusement Park out by Great Falls and Cabin John. I also used to drag race out off of 301 at Budds Creek Dragway in Mechanicsville.

In 1968 and 69 I raced a 289 ci (it was one of the 289s manufactured before they went to the 302 ci) 68 mustang at Capital Raceway right on 301 around Crofton and Aquasco,and Buds Creek. That's when they were switching to ET brackets instead of just qualifying with what you had under the hood.I ran M stock and won Maryland State for M stock in 1968. I didn't care for the ET racing because i was running against much larger engines like 396 Chevy's. I did win some because they would run faster than what what was allowed for the bracket. In fact I was at one of the tracks (i don't remember which one) the day we landed on the moon.

 

[Redfool]

In 1968 and 69 I raced a 289 ci (it was one of the 289s manufactured before they went to the 302 ci) 68 mustang at Capital Raceway right on 301 around Crofton and Aquasco,and Buds Creek. That's when they were switching to ET brackets instead of just qualifying with what you had under the hood.I ran M stock and won Maryland State for M stock in 1968. I didn't care for the ET racing because i was running against much larger engines like 396 Chevy's. I did win some because they would run faster than what what was allowed for the bracket. In fact I was at one of the tracks (i don't remember which one) the day we landed on the moon.

Early 70’s ran in 10.01 bracket. Drove a 67 Chevelle 427 Rat motor. Ran high 10s but never did “breakout”.

 

[madbad]

Turtlesnobs.com

It does kind of have a ring to it......

typed it in, saw a tortoise penis

 

[ZEROPILOT]

Early 70’s ran in 10.01 bracket. Drove a 67 Chevelle 427 Rat motor. Ran high 10s but never did “breakout”.

I currently have a dragbike. I've been racing since about 1978.
Maybe we should start a drag race thread?
(This one is getting de railed)

 

[mark1]

Your never going to stop development , the only places for wildlife will be areas set aside for such , where they and the habitat are protected , or wildlife that can survive urban settings ……… I seen a study by new York wildlife on blanding’s turtle population growth rates within the state , all the population growth rates were negative …. There was a 95% certainty that there would be no viable population in the state in 300yrs ……. The populations studied were estimated to be between 1500 and 4500 turtles ……… the annual mortality rate was estimated to be 4% , the road mortality rate estimated to be .55% over a 15 yr period ……. Given an average population of 3000 , that would be 16 adult turtles killed on the roads each year …….. they calculated that in order to have a 95% certainty of having viable populations of blanding’s turtles in new York in 300yrs , road mortality would need reduced by 20% annually ……… there was a guy not to long ago busted in ohio with 50-60 adult poached blandings turtles , based on a 3000 turtle population those 50-60 turtles would reduce that road mortality rate by 20% for the next 16yrs …….. I seen two , without question , poached blandings turtles for sale on fauna within the last 6 months , those two alone would just about fulfill that 20% need ……..

 

[madbad]

Your never going to stop development , the only places for wildlife will be areas set aside for such , where they and the habitat are protected , or wildlife that can survive urban settings ……… I seen a study by new York wildlife on blanding’s turtle population growth rates within the state , all the population growth rates were negative …. There was a 95% certainty that there would be no viable population in the state in 300yrs ……. The populations studied were estimated to be between 1500 and 4500 turtles ……… the annual mortality rate was estimated to be 4% , the road mortality rate estimated to be .55% over a 15 yr period ……. Given an average population of 3000 , that would be 16 adult turtles killed on the roads each year …….. they calculated that in order to have a 95% certainty of having viable populations of blanding’s turtles in new York in 300yrs , road mortality would need reduced by 20% annually ……… there was a guy not to long ago busted in ohio with 50-60 adult poached blandings turtles , based on a 3000 turtle population those 50-60 turtles would reduce that road mortality rate by 20% for the next 16yrs …….. I seen two , without question , poached blandings turtles for sale on fauna within the last 6 months , those two alone would just about fulfill that 20% need ……..

Such a good post