Golden greek?

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Raymo2477

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Okay what makes a golden Greek?

I've read that they are just lighter colored Greeks...is their a threshold ?

I've also seen black Greeks. Is there an in between that is "normal" or is it golden or black?

I also assume that this is a human intruded term and is not a subspecies issue.

I'm just wondering about the little guy my friend has...he's not golden and his head is yellowish and blacklish so I would assume he in between.

Any info appreciated.
 

MatrixDJ

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I am sure there will be others that know better than I respond to this but I will get it going. A Greek tortoise is a Greek tortoise. There is technically no subspecies of them and they are very spread out over Spain, Greece, Turkey, etc... Over time they have seemingly become more adapted to the environments and have become darker or lighter. There is no evidence of them being of a different species. As far as their husbandry goes, there is a bit of a difference in the temperatures to be kept at and this will need to be taken into account when creating their habitat. However, the differences are quite small, maybe 5-10 degrees. If GBTortoise responds, he will have a great answer for you. I hope I helped a little to understand.
 

GBtortoises

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There are many subspecies of Greek tortoises. How many depends upon which literature and researcher you choose to believe. Possibly as many as 10-14 subspecies or more (or less)! For sure there are at least two subspecies from North Africa, three to five throughout the Middle East and one or two north of Turkey. Knowing what subspecies you is important not only to their care but to preserve the limited number of purebred species (and subspecies) in captivity.

Golden Greeks are not a species unto themselves. Importers and vendors "created" Golden Greeks about a little over a decade ago. The name Golden Greek was and is used to describe any Testudo gracea tortoise that is lacking dark coloration on it's skin and shell. While the majority of them come from two to three Middle Eastern subspecies or species just about any Greek tortoise that fits the bill is being called a Golden Greek. Ibera Greeks from the Northern Mediterranean which are usually much larger overall and come from a different environment than Middle Eastern Greeks. At this point with many of the light colored tortoises of different subspecies being interbred in captivity the term Golden Greek may actually be a better description for them than their original subspecies since many are no longer known or recognized.

Black Greeks are a similar, but less widespread situation. Few Middle Eastern Greek species and subspecies exhibit coloration dark enough throughout their entire shells and skin to be truly considered black. When looked at objectively, most Middle Eastern gracea only have 50% or less dark coloration and often times that is a dark brown, not black. The exception in the Middle Eastern species being Testudo (gracea) anamurensis which is a limiited range species found in the vicinity of Anamur, Turkey. Many individuals of that species are nearly completely black. They also are unusual in that they're body shape closer resemble a flattened Marginated tortoise than that of a typical Greek tortoise. The Northern races of Testudo (gracea) ibera, have several examples of all black or nearly all black individuals. Most of them turn darker as they get older. Very few babies of those same northern races are more than 50% black when young. The only certain way to know approximately how black a Black Greek baby is going to grow to be is to see it's parents.

As Michael points out above, the main difference in care is temperature. Generally, Middle Eastern Greeks require a bit warmer temperatures overall and especially at night. Whereas Northern Mediterranean Greeks can tolerate very cold temperatures at night and longer periods of cooler days. Generally, Middle Eastern Greeks are more susceptible to respiratory problems when exposed to cooler conditions coupled with moisture. Other than slight temperature and in some cases humidity differences the care of the different subspecies of Greeks is nearly identical. Here in the U.S. the majority of imported Greeks, including Golden Greeks, over the past decade and half have come from the Middle Eastern countries of Jordan, Lebanon and northern Turkey as well as a few bordering countries. Most of the tortoises being called Black Greeks are offspring of long term captive Northern Mediterranean Ibera. However, some darker Middle Eastern Greeks are also being sold as Black Greeks too.
 

MatrixDJ

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That is very interesting GB. I knew you'd have a great answer :) So is the Testudo (gracea) anamurensis a literal subspecies? Technically speaking, I was under the impression that all Greeks were of the same species regardless of origin. I guess the scientific names would give that away then?
 

GBtortoises

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There are several subspecies of Greeks, some now catergorized as seperate species outside of Testudo. The Greek tortoise species and subspecies classifications have always been in constant flux. That still has not changed but with better research technology, mainly DNA samplings, species and subspecies are becoming more sound. The below information was copied from Wikipedia. Even it is lacking some of the current subspecies. Again, much of that depends upon what literature and researcher one chooses to accept.

Testudo graeca graeca (North Africa and South Spain)
Testudo graeca soussensis (South Morocco)
Testudo graeca marokkensis (North Morocco)
Testudo graeca nabeulensis (Tunisia)
Testudo graeca cyrenaica (Libya)
Testudo graeca ibera (Turkey)
Testudo graeca armeniaca (Armenia)
Testudo graeca buxtoni (Caspian Sea)
Testudo graeca terrestris (Israel/Lebanon)
Testudo graeca zarudnyi (Iran)
Testudo graeca whitei (Algeria)

Others not on the list but also widely accepted are:

Testudo gracea annumurensis (Southern Turkey)
Testudo gracea antakyensis (Southern Turkey/Syria/Lebanon)

As well as a couple of tortoises formerly classified in Testudo:

Furculachelys gracea nabeulensis (Tunisia)
Furculachelys whitei (Algeria)

As you can see by two of the tortoises that are on each list there is always constant debate about which classification some should be listed under.

A few, such a T. ibera, T. gracea gracea and a couple of others are pretty concrete with very little to no dispute.
 
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