GPP or GBP

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ewam

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Is there any signs that I can tell if my yearling tortoise is a GBP or a GPP such as coloring or shape of the shell. Or do I just have to wait to see how big it gets.
 

Neal

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Do you have any pictures?
 

Yvonne G

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The Gpp have a more mottled or spotted skin, but it starts fading right around a year of age. The Gpp also has two brown dots inside the scutes, but that starts to fade too as the tortoise ages. Unless you were specifically told when you bought the tortoise that it was Gpp, more than likely its Gpb. Also, at a year of age a Gpp will be quite a bit bigger than the Gpb.

If you post some pictures, Neal or Tom will be able to tell you.
 

Neal

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Can't say conclusively, but it looks like a hybrid. Where did you get him from?

Here's why I think he's a hybrid:

1) South African leopards (GPP - Bigger) don't pyramid like that. You can tell the tortoise has a "dome" shape which is more typical with the East African Leopards (GPB - Smaller), and that's why the pyramiding looks more like what you would see on a GPB. So one point for GPB

2) The more vibrant colors of the black and white of the carapace is more of a GPB trait. GPP will have a duller black color, and the white is more of a bone/off white. One more point for GPB

3) The dots on the coastal scutes are a GPP trait. GPB will typically only have one or no dots on all their scutes. One point for GPP

4) The skin color and "freckling" is typically a GPP trait, though GPB are known to have that trait as well. We'll give that point to the GPP.

Other points - the vertabral scutes don't seem quite right for a pure GPB or pure GPP...can't explain that too well...they just don't look right to be distinguishable as either or. I think I read on another one of your threads that this one is a year old. It looks to be a pretty good size to for a one year old...but so many factors play into that, it is again not a really strong distinguishable trait between the two. There are other traits as well, but I think with all that said above, I've established why I think it's a hybrid. Knowing where and who you got it from will tell a lot of the story as well. Like Yvonne said, if the seller didn't tell you that it was a GPP...it probably isn't.

Here's a thread I wrote up. It's not as detailed as I would like it to be...but it has pictures and explanations.

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-G-p-pardalis-and-G-p-babcocki#axzz1YdKNa6qi
 

ewam

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Is this a bad thing that it is a hybrid? I got it from a really good reptile place that had a lot tortoises, baby's and and older ones it is called Reptile Island. I've had it for ten months and it was only one month then so it's not already a year just close to it.
 

GeoTerraTestudo

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Note: it's Gpp and Gpb. "Babcocki" is a subspecies name, not a species name. Both animals are in the species "pardalis."

Also, question: Is it difficult to get a Gpp to mate with a Gpb, or do they do so readily? I don't want to hybridize these two subspecies (I don't even keep leopard tortoises), but I am always curious about what happens when animals hybridize in captivity.
 

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Is it technically a hybrid if its two of the same species, but different subspecies? I always refer to them as hybrids, but I think I might be "scientifically incorrect" when I do so. Also, many of the scientists nowadays are no longer recognizing any subspecies and consider them to be all one species, but with some geographically variable characteristics.

Just throwing that fun little monkey wrench into the mix there...
 

GeoTerraTestudo

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Tom said:
Is it technically a hybrid if its two of the same species, but different subspecies? I always refer to them as hybrids, but I think I might be "scientifically incorrect" when I do so. Also, many of the scientists nowadays are no longer recognizing any subspecies and consider them to be all one species, but with some geographically variable characteristics.

Just throwing that fun little monkey wrench into the mix there...

The term "hybrid" is Latin for "half-breed," and it can refer to any plant or animal whose parents are from different genera, species, subspecies, races, or even just different populations. If the parents are very different from each other, then the hybrid offspring may have reduced fertility, poor health, or even die prematurely. If the parents are only a little bit different from each other, then the offspring may have "hybrid vigor," which is the opposite of inbreeding depression, making it very healthy. So, a hybrid between an African and Asian elephant (different genera) doesn't survive for long. A hybrid between a horse and a donkey (different species) is infertile. But a hybrid between a wolf and a dog (different subspecies) is usually quite healthy.

Box turtles form zones of intergradation where two subspecies overlap. Thus, although each subspecies has some distinct traits, the animals are still compatible mates where they meet in nature. So I am curious if the two different leopard tortoise subspecies (or regional variants) readily mate with one another or not. Someone said in another thread that leopard tortoise hybrids have reduced fertility. If that's true, then that suggests that the two groups are relatively distantly related to each other. Is there a zone of intergradation for leopard tortoises in Africa? I don't think there is; I think the two groups are separated by wide distances. So maybe a lot of time has passed, allowing their genetics to drift apart, and making them incompatible for mating, unless forced to do so in captivity.

http://emys.geo.orst.edu/collection/species/Geochelonepardalis/Geochelonepardalis.html
 

N2TORTS

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Neal said:
Can't say conclusively, but it looks like a hybrid. Where did you get him from?

Here's why I think he's a hybrid:

1) South African leopards (GPP - Bigger) don't pyramid like that. You can tell the tortoise has a "dome" shape which is more typical with the East African Leopards (GPB - Smaller), and that's why the pyramiding looks more like what you would see on a GPB. So one point for GPB

2) The more vibrant colors of the black and white of the carapace is more of a GPB trait. GPP will have a duller black color, and the white is more of a bone/off white. One more point for GPB

3) The dots on the coastal scutes are a GPP trait. GPB will typically only have one or no dots on all their scutes. One point for GPP

4) The skin color and "freckling" is typically a GPP trait, though GPB are known to have that trait as well. We'll give that point to the GPP.

Other points - the vertabral scutes don't seem quite right for a pure GPB or pure GPP...can't explain that too well...they just don't look right to be distinguishable as either or. I think I read on another one of your threads that this one is a year old. It looks to be a pretty good size to for a one year old...but so many factors play into that, it is again not a really strong distinguishable trait between the two. There are other traits as well, but I think with all that said above, I've established why I think it's a hybrid. Knowing where and who you got it from will tell a lot of the story as well. Like Yvonne said, if the seller didn't tell you that it was a GPP...it probably isn't.

Here's a thread I wrote up. It's not as detailed as I would like it to be...but it has pictures and explanations.

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-G-p-pardalis-and-G-p-babcocki#axzz1YdKNa6qi

EXCELLENT X~planation! .........10 points for NEAL! :D

JD~:)
 

Neal

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There are certainly a lot of technicalities with this type of thing. A "hybrid" or however you term it isn't inherently bad...like it's not going to stunt the tortoises growth or cause any health defects (at least I would assume it wouldn't). So, if it's "bad" or not is really a matter of personal opinion. Being a leopard guy, one of the coolest things for me would be to have groups of leopards from specific localities. Unfortunately, due to the importing process and lack of understanding when these were coming into the US...localities and genes get mixed up. Even now, there are very few South African leopard owners who actually have documentation that their tortoises in fact came from South Africa...even then it isn't as simple as that...everything else...who knows where they are from originally.
 

Yvonne G

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Actually, when you breed sub-species to each other the offspring aren't called "hybrid" they're referred to as "intergrade."

Quite a few of the "experts" and scientists on tortoises don't feel there ARE leopard subspecies. Same tortoise, just from different geographical locations.

I'd be willing to bet that there are more Gpp/Gpb intergrades in the pet trade than we realize.

No, far as you're concerned, Eric, its not a bad thing. Your tortoise will make a wonderful pet. And if you take the side of the tortoise scientists, your guy is a leopard tortoise. Your tortoise will breed with other leopard tortoises just fine. And if you're not interested in breeding, then you've got a fine pet there. Very pretty.
 

GeoTerraTestudo

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emysemys said:
Actually, when you breed sub-species to each other they aren't called "hybrid" they're referred to as "intergrade."

Zones of intergradation occur where subspecies hybridize.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_(biology)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intergrade[hr]
A note on subspecies.

Although different subspecies within a given species are very similar to each other, sometimes they have important differences. When you're talking about latitudinal or altitudinal gradients, subspecies from warmer climates may have different adaptations than those from colder climates. Ditto for precipitation gradients: different subspecies may have different adaptations for relatively dry or wet conditions.

In captivity, a lot of this stuff might not matter. As long as an animal is genetically healthy and does not have reduced fertility, it can be a good pet and can even be bred once it matures. However, if you view captivity as a kind of "Noah's Ark," that's when hybridization becomes an issue. Because if you ever plan on re-releasing animals that are endangered in the wild, or giving them free-range in a property or a park, then that's when their adaptations matter.

Now, as Yvonne said, maybe leopard tortoises don't come in subspecies, only regional variants. That may be. However, given the differences between Tanzania and South Africa where this wide-ranging species occurs, it stands to reason that there may be regional physiological differences, especially with cold tolerance. Animals native to South Africa may be more cold-tolerant than those native to East Africa. There are descriptions of leopard tortoises going into a short period of torpor in southern Africa, but not in eastern Africa. Not quite hibernation, but a dormant period to tolerate the cold. Is this an adaptation that only southern leopard tortoises have? Of, if you were to put a Tanzanian tortoise in South Africa, would it be able to go into torpor during low temperatures? I don't know, and I don't think anyone does at this point.

So, if this little tortoise is a hybrid of Gpp and Gpb, then it's tough to know what kind of cold tolerance it has. Morphological attributes at maturity (size, shape, color) may be tougher to predict as well.
 

ewam

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Ok thanks it's just that there has been a lot of people saying that keeping two breeds together is not good and I've never heard about hybrids before.
 

GeoTerraTestudo

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ewam said:
Ok thanks it's just that there has been a lot of people saying that keeping two breeds together is not good and I've never heard about hybrids before.

Well, remember, turtles don't come in breeds. Maybe somebody has a strain of albino turtles he's perpetuating, but there are no turtle breeds. Breeds are the result of artificial selection, and are all part of the same species. Dogs, for example, are domestic wolves that have been bred to be big or small, long- or short-haired, have long or short snouts, etc. But they're all wolves (except for those few that have hybridized with coyotes or jackals). Most dogs are probably descended from Middle Eastern wolves, but may have hybridized later with northern wolves.

Tortoises, however, are captive wild animals that have not undergone any artificial selection, so they are not breeds. If you have a northern leopard tortoise and a southern leopard tortoise, they look the way they look because that's how natural selection has shaped them.
 

ewam

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I have another question do a hybrid or subspecies or what ever you want to call them do they get big like a GPP or are they smaller like a GBP or do they get like in the middle.
 
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