Grasses for outdoor enclosure

[chosen2030]

I live in Arizona and I have a side yard that I want to convert to a tortoise garden. It's between 2 houses so although it gets full sun in the mornings, due to the 8 ft walls and the side of my house, either the right side or left side is partially shaded throughout the day.

Maybe I'm just not sodding or watering right, but Bermuda grass just hasn't stuck. Does anyone who lives in a desert environment like Phoenix have any suggestions for other grasses I can try that are obviously edible? St. Augustine?

 

[wellington]

How old is your leopard and what kind, babcocki or paradeli? The most Babcocki tend to not eat grass at a young age.

 

[chosen2030]

How old is your leopard and what kind, babcocki or paradeli? The most Babcocki tend to not eat grass at a young age.

I have one of each. They won't actually be living in the garden for a while, but I'd like to get the grass established a few years ahead of time.

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Here are some pictures of it's current condition.

 

[BeeBee*BeeLeaves]

St. Augustine is the best, I think, for feeding. It does need sun reprieve. The fence to house shade you show there might be very good for this type of grass. The roots are a little shallow and a real big 'um can uproot it as it eats. But I think that is more a sulcata feeding on it than a leopard. Bermuda grass is the devil of the grass world to many people because once in, it is hard to get rid of it. It's roots run deeper so it can bounce back from lotsa nom nom. But also, for variety, good stuff for tortoises.

How about both - or even more, with a variety of grasses, like rye, by dividing the area into sections? - and in between you can do something like bender board barrier to keep each grass contained in it's section and maybe a little gravel area in the middle where the terra cotta saucer for water can go and the slate for feeding other things. In other words, divide into three sections: St. Augustine area - gravel.water.feed area - Bermuda area. Or more sections with different grasses in each area. Like a grass quilt. : )

 

[chosen2030]

St. Augustine is the best, I think, for feeding. It does need sun reprieve. The fence to house shade you show there might be very good for this type of grass. The roots are a little shallow and a real big 'um can uproot it as it eats. But I think that is more a sulcata feeding on it than a leopard. Bermuda grass is the devil of the grass world to many people because once in, it is hard to get rid of it. It's roots run deeper so it can bounce back from lotsa nom nom. But also, for variety, good stuff for tortoises.

How about both - or even more, with a variety of grasses, like rye, by dividing the area into sections? - and in between you can do something like bender board barrier to keep each grass contained in it's section and maybe a little gravel area in the middle where the terra cotta saucer for water can go and the slate for feeding other things. In other words, divide into three sections: St. Augustine area - gravel.water.feed area - Bermuda area. Or more sections with different grasses in each area. Like a grass quilt. : )

That does sound very nice, but like I said, I've had no success with Bermuda grass in that area so I may try a St. Augustine section and a Rye or Fescue section in the winter months.

 

[BeeBee*BeeLeaves]

Duh-huh! You did say that. Okay, that's weird. Bermuda grass is the bain of everyone's existence and grows everywhere. Well, normal perfect garden peeps that is. Us tortoise people are okay with it for the food part.

If Bermuda is not taking hold, then St Augustine may not take either. I would, good thing you are planning ahead, look at the soil in that area and amend first. Soil-soil-soil, without good soil nothing can happen. If you have a Starbucks near you, one of their corporate goodwill things is the "grounds for your garden" program ... FREE coffee grounds - free soil amendment! Just talk to a manager and start bringing in trash bags on a regular basis full of the stuff and start amending that area and rake it in, water. Most side yards, if they have not been worked (here in suburbia at least) are very deficient. You may also use some manure, steer or chicken or even horse ( some free pasture grasses that way from seeds in pony poop) since you are doing this ahead.

I really think you soil is lacking in nutrients if bermuda-the-devil-grass won't grow, or is it maybe rather shady there? In which case, St A will like it just fine. : )

 

[Tom]

Most grasses will need more sun than that. Also have you amended the soil? People near you usually have a tough time growing grass. Most lawns there are gravel, no? Wrong climate. I doubt St. Augustine will survive there.

I'd find an area with full sun and plant cactus, grapevines and African hibiscus there. Then find some friends and neighbors with mulberry trees and trim them back for them.

 

[erica anne]

My bermuda grows fine in the shade. We have to thatch first, lay down a manure mixture and then plant. Good ground prep and watering us the key.

 

[chosen2030]

My bermuda grows fine in the shade. We have to thatch first, lay down a manure mixture and then plant. Good ground prep and watering us the key.

Do you live in a desert region too, Erica Anne?

---

By the way, does anyone have any experience or an opinion on Zoysia grass? Is it safe and edible?

 

[BeeBee*BeeLeaves]

Zoysia comes in plugs right? Be sure there is no fertilizer. I like Tom's idea to plant grapes or dwarf fig. Leopards, from what i understand, like other things more than grass. I only have a 4 month old but my friend has a herd and they like wide leaves, like commelina and clovers, kinda more than grass actually. You could put a potpourri of stuff in, like nasturtiums and other edible flowers and do the grapes and fig in large terra cotta pots or barrels or large 55 gallon drum containers. Also, there might be some native grasses that would be perfect for you ...

... And yes, there is, I just found this for you to consider from University of Arizona:

The grasses listed below are native, drought tolerant, perennial species suitable for erosion control in the Verde Valley area. It not all-inclusive, but contains species that are attractive and non-invasive.

Alkali sacaton (Sporobolus airoides) is a warm season bunchgrass. It is found on bottomlands of the Verde Valley and other areas where runoff water collects. It is an excellent substitute for pampasgrass in landscapes.

Black grama (Bouteloua eriopodia) is a warm season sod forming grass that prefers limestone derived soils. It will root at nodes under favorable conditions to form new plants.

Blue grama (Bouteloua gracilis) is a warm season sod forming grass. One of the most widely distributed of the native grasses in the western U.S.

Buffalograss (Buchloe dactyloides) is a warm season, low-growing, sod forming grass. A native of the Great Plains and parts of Arizona. It is well adapted and spreads rapidly by stolons (above ground runners) to form a dense sod.

Hairy grama (Bouteloua hirsuta) is a close cousin of blue grama and also a warm season sod forming grass. Hairy grama can be distinguished for blue grama by the needle-like rachis that projects beyond the spikelet-bearing portion of the seed head.

Indian ricegrass (Achnatherum hymenoides) is a cool season bunchgrass. It is well adapted to course, well-drained soils and attractive to birds and small mammals.

Needle and thread grass (Hesperostipa comata) is a cool season bunchgrass. It is well adapted to coarse, well-drained, limestone derived soils. It is very attractive when seed heads are backlit.

Plains lovegrass (Erigrostis intermedia) is a warm season bunchgrass. It has a deep root system and is a highly desirable forage plant.

Sand dropseed (Sporobolus cryptandrus) is a warm season bunchgrass that thrives on sandy soils. It establishes easily and is widely used for erosion control.

Sideoats grama (Bouteloua curtipendula) is a warm season bunchgrass. Grows best on slopes with medium to fine textured soils.

Tobosa (Hilaria mutica) is a warm season sod forming grass. It often grows on clay soils on benches and swales. It is highly drought resistant once established.

Vine mesquite (Panicum obtusum) is a warm season sod forming grass. It is an excellent soil stabilizer, but prefers low areas having fine textured soils.

Each of the above listed species should perform well alone or in combination. Some species may be available from local nurseries.

These places have the seeds:
Curtis and Curtis, 4500 N. Prince, Star RT. Box 8A, Clovis, NM 88101, (505) 762-4759, Fax: (505) 763-4213, web site: www.curtisseed.com.
Granite Seed, 1697 West 2100 North, Lehi, UT, 84043, (801) 768-4422, Fax: (801) 768-3967, web site: www.graniteseed.com.
Pawnee Buttes Seed, P.O. Box 100 605 25th Street, Greeley, CO. 80632 (800) 782-5947 (970) 356-7002 Fax (970) 356-7263, web site: www.pawneebuttesseed.com.
Wind River Seed, 3075 Lane 51 ½, Manderson, WY 82401, (307) 568-3361, Fax: (307) 568-3364, web site: www.windriverseed.com.

 

[jtrux]

St. Augustine comes from higher humidity areas and requires lots of water. It's native to Texas coastlines all the way to Florida so I think you would be wasting your time there.

If the side of your house is soo shaded that you're having trouble growing plants then you might consider another spot...your torts will appreciate a little sun themselves.

 

[chosen2030]

Zoysia comes in plugs right? Be sure there is no fertilizer. I like Tom's idea to plant grapes or dwarf fig. Leopards, from what i understand, like other things more than grass. I only have a 4 month old but my friend has a herd and they like wide leaves, like commelina and clovers, kinda more than grass actually. You could put a potpourri of stuff in, like nasturtiums and other edible flowers and do the grapes and fig in large terra cotta pots or barrels or large 55 gallon drum containers. Also, there might be some native grasses that would be perfect for you ...

... And yes, there is, I just found this for you to consider from University of Arizona:

The grasses listed below are native, drought tolerant, perennial species suitable for erosion control in the Verde Valley area. It not all-inclusive, but contains species that are attractive and non-invasive.

Alkali sacaton (Sporobolus airoides) is a warm season bunchgrass. It is found on bottomlands of the Verde Valley and other areas where runoff water collects. It is an excellent substitute for pampasgrass in landscapes.

Black grama (Bouteloua eriopodia) is a warm season sod forming grass that prefers limestone derived soils. It will root at nodes under favorable conditions to form new plants.

Blue grama (Bouteloua gracilis) is a warm season sod forming grass. One of the most widely distributed of the native grasses in the western U.S.

Buffalograss (Buchloe dactyloides) is a warm season, low-growing, sod forming grass. A native of the Great Plains and parts of Arizona. It is well adapted and spreads rapidly by stolons (above ground runners) to form a dense sod.

Hairy grama (Bouteloua hirsuta) is a close cousin of blue grama and also a warm season sod forming grass. Hairy grama can be distinguished for blue grama by the needle-like rachis that projects beyond the spikelet-bearing portion of the seed head.

Indian ricegrass (Achnatherum hymenoides) is a cool season bunchgrass. It is well adapted to course, well-drained soils and attractive to birds and small mammals.

Needle and thread grass (Hesperostipa comata) is a cool season bunchgrass. It is well adapted to coarse, well-drained, limestone derived soils. It is very attractive when seed heads are backlit.

Plains lovegrass (Erigrostis intermedia) is a warm season bunchgrass. It has a deep root system and is a highly desirable forage plant.

Sand dropseed (Sporobolus cryptandrus) is a warm season bunchgrass that thrives on sandy soils. It establishes easily and is widely used for erosion control.

Sideoats grama (Bouteloua curtipendula) is a warm season bunchgrass. Grows best on slopes with medium to fine textured soils.

Tobosa (Hilaria mutica) is a warm season sod forming grass. It often grows on clay soils on benches and swales. It is highly drought resistant once established.

Vine mesquite (Panicum obtusum) is a warm season sod forming grass. It is an excellent soil stabilizer, but prefers low areas having fine textured soils.

Each of the above listed species should perform well alone or in combination. Some species may be available from local nurseries.

These places have the seeds:
Curtis and Curtis, 4500 N. Prince, Star RT. Box 8A, Clovis, NM 88101, (505) 762-4759, Fax: (505) 763-4213, web site: www.curtisseed.com.
Granite Seed, 1697 West 2100 North, Lehi, UT, 84043, (801) 768-4422, Fax: (801) 768-3967, web site: www.graniteseed.com.
Pawnee Buttes Seed, P.O. Box 100 605 25th Street, Greeley, CO. 80632 (800) 782-5947 (970) 356-7002 Fax (970) 356-7263, web site: www.pawneebuttesseed.com.
Wind River Seed, 3075 Lane 51 ½, Manderson, WY 82401, (307) 568-3361, Fax: (307) 568-3364, web site: www.windriverseed.com.

Wow, thanks so much for all your help! Of the grasses you listed, are any of them edible? I've read that buffalograss is but I don't know about any of the others.

---

St. Augustine comes from higher humidity areas and requires lots of water. It's native to Texas coastlines all the way to Florida so I think you would be wasting your time there.

If the side of your house is so shaded that you're having trouble growing plants then you might consider another spot...your torts will appreciate a little sun themselves.

That's not the case with plants. I don't know if you can tell what they are in the pictures I attached, but I have optunia cactus, yucca plant, hibiscus, sage bush, and couple others that have done just fine on the sideyard.

 

[BeeBee*BeeLeaves]

Silly me. Maybe more due diligence is in order to be sure of things. I just assumed that if it's grass, it will be edible for our tortoises. I am thinking they might be and if they are native to your area the desert tortoises would eat them and if it is good enough for gopherus it would be good enough for leopards. Hold that thought ...

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Oh, about the St Augustine. Mine grows under my fruit trees and loves it plus it serves as living mulch for the trees! You could even grow it in a pot or a simple black plastic container since it will hang over the sides. I do like the native grasses also 'cause that means they like the AZ. Easy. Even if it is just buffalo grass and/or St A, and cool container garden islands in the corners of the area with other edibles, like a grape vine that will grow over the fence or train it along the fence to frame, or a dwarf fig or dwarf weeping mulberry (awesome tree by the way) off of the ground and not taking up space for your tortoises. Using vertical space. That could be killer cool! : )

 

[chosen2030]

Silly me. Maybe more due diligence is in order to be sure of things. I just assumed that if it's grass, it will be edible for our tortoises. I am thinking they might be and if they are native to your area the desert tortoises would eat them and if it is good enough for gopherus it would be good enough for leopards. Hold that thought ...

---

Oh, about the St Augustine. Mine grows under my fruit trees and loves it plus it serves as living mulch for the trees! You could even grow it in a pot or a simple black plastic container since it will hang over the sides. I do like the native grasses also 'cause that means they like the AZ. Easy. Even if it is just buffalo grass and/or St A, and cool container garden islands in the corners of the area with other edibles, like a grape vine that will grow over the fence or train it along the fence to frame, or a dwarf fig or dwarf weeping mulberry (awesome tree by the way) off of the ground and not taking up space for your tortoises. Using vertical space. That could be killer cool! : )

---

Lots of very cool ideas and great suggestions. Thanks so much

 

[tortadise]

Bermudas are the best. However they do require a relatively high PH. You can get a soil Ph tester at Home Depot. So that being said. Tom is on to something. have you done any tilling, preparation or earth mix up in the area? Most solid down there are very sandy. best results for bermudas would constitute adding a top layer of good topsoil or compost mix then sodding. Buffalo grass is a great mix too. One thing you could do is seed it with some tortoise seed. Then add 2-3" of the top soil and compost, bedding mix on top. Water away and bam you just built a layer of earth.

 

[BeeBee*BeeLeaves]

Just remembered: check out groworganic.com Look at all them beautiful grasses! http://www.groworganic.com/seeds/grass-seed.html?limit=300

 

[chosen2030]

Does anyone know if nurseries carry desert zinnia's or their seeds? The annual zinnias they do, but the ones I'm looking for are perennials.

 

[BeeBee*BeeLeaves]

Found it! Zinnia acerosa - graniteseed.com
Also, along the way, excellent site: fireflyforest.com

 

[chosen2030]

Found it! Zinnia acerosa - graniteseed.com
Also, along the way, excellent site: fireflyforest.com

Wow, you are very good

What about Zinnia grandiflora? LOL