Greek baby not eating and sleeping too much

[Mjdeisher]

I'm sure everyone is tired of hearing me fret about Paul, but he's gone from worrisome to all out sick. I've had him for 2 weeks now. When I first got him, he was healthy, eating, loved dandelion greens. I soak him two times a day for 20min. He was getting calcium supplement with d3 once a day. His food consists of a mixture of dandelion greens, mustard greens, parsley, kale, and spring mix. I also heard turnip greens were really good for them, so I picked those up tonight at the market. It was about a week ago that I noticed he was sleeping a lot but he would perk up a lot when he was outside. Then his eyelids looked white, or that his eyes were swollen. Now in the past 2 days, he doesn't seem interested in any food I give him and he is very inactive, only opening his eyes when I spray him or pick him up. Um, I started spraying him about 3 times a day last week when I noticed his activity change. He did have a good sized poop today, so that's good right? Ummm, his lighting is up to par as far as I have researched. He has an 18" tube uv bulb t8. 100w basking bulb. The entire apartment doesn't get below 70 at night. What is wrong with my baby? :,( money is not limited so anything that I can do to get him to live, will be done. I'm getting an appointment at the vet on friday(2days). Anything else you need to know, please just ask...

 

[wellington]

I don't know if this could have anything to do with it at this young age, but calcium with D3 every day is way too much. Two to three times a week is enough and may even be too much. If he gets outside for sunshine every day, I wouldn't give D3 at all. Too much of it is bad. If you baby is sick, do not let the temps get low. I would keep it at the ambient temp for your specie even at night. If he isn't eating, you could do some baby food soaks. Mix carrot baby food in the warm soaking water. What substrate are you using? Others should be along to help out. Good luck at the vet appointment. Hope all goes well for you and your little one.

 

[Mjdeisher]

I don't know if this could have anything to do with it at this young age, but calcium with D3 every day is way too much. Two to three times a week is enough and may even be too much. If he gets outside for sunshine every day, I wouldn't give D3 at all. Too much of it is bad. If you baby is sick, do not let the temps get low. I would keep it at the ambient temp for your specie even at night. If he isn't eating, you could do some baby food soaks. Mix carrot baby food in the warm soaking water. What substrate are you using? Others should be along to help out. Good luck at the vet appointment. Hope all goes well for you and your little one.

I have cut the calcium with d3 back to every other day. He doesn't get outside every day with it getting cooler, rain, and work schedule. What about the liquid calcium? I read that could be an option. Oh, forgot to put in that I have started to notice the bottom half of his shell getting softer. It's not really soft, but I picked him up today and noticed I could push in on his tummy. I bought a night basking bulb today in a panicked run to petsmart. I also picked up squash and carrot baby food to soak him in tomorrow. Is squash ok? Substrate is coco coir on top, with topsoil on bottom. He has a hide on the cool side of the enclosure but rarely uses it.

 

[Laurie]

I don't have experience with Greek babies, but if he was perking up outside, it makes me think something is off with your indoor enclosures. Are you 100% sure your temperatures are good?

Also sounds like a lot of calcium to me, for my steppe babies, I only sprinkle tnt on food once or twice a week. They both have cuttlebones though which they do eat.

Are you certain the shell is getting softer. It is normally pliable in babies, especially if you push where the yolk sack was. If you are sure it's getting softer, I wouldn't delay a vet visit. Make sure you read about the vit injections though because they can be dangerous.

If you for him from someone here, I'm sure you can pm them for advice. Good luck

You can also try pm'ing Gbtortoises, he knows his stuff!

 

[Mjdeisher]

I don't have experience with Greek babies, but if he was perking up outside, it makes me think something is off with your indoor enclosures. Are you 100% sure your temperatures are good?

Also sounds like a lot of calcium to me, for my steppe babies, I only sprinkle tnt on food once or twice a week. They both have cuttlebones though which they do eat.

Are you certain the shell is getting softer. It is normally pliable in babies, especially if you push where the yolk sack was. If you are sure it's getting softer, I wouldn't delay a vet visit. Make sure you read about the vit injections though because they can be dangerous.

If you for him from someone here, I'm sure you can pm them for advice. Good luck

That's what I thought with the outdoor thing too. But under the bulb is between 100-110. Hot side is around 90-95. Cool side is usually 80. He stays under the bulb pretty much all the time so i kind of assume its not too hot. He'd go to the cool side if he was, right? I was having humidity issues being that it was to low. I started dumping water into the substrate and misting, that keeps it around 60. I'm to the point of going and buying a humidifier, I can't keep the apartment from being bone-dry. Paul just doesn't seem interested in the cuttlebone. He hasn't touched it since I put it in there. I will cut back on the calcium. Like I said, I got a night lamp for him so he stays warmer at night. And I'll do the carrot soak in the morning.

 

[Laurie]

Can you take some pics of your enclosure so we can see?

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In my opinion it's too hot. Under the basking bulb should be about 95, warm side about 80 and cool side in the 70's. I don't think they need nighttime heat. I have Russians , but they are both testudo so I would think the temperature requirements would be similar.

If they are the same temp requirements it's way too hot, which will also lead to dehydration. I would adjust the temps lower.

 

[Mjdeisher]

I don't have any with the light setup, I can get those in the morning if it would be helpful. I've also moved the food closer to the heat lamp because he seemed more comfortable there. It's in the general area where he would always dig a burrow.

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Oops, pics sent twice...

 

[ascott]

http://www.chelonia.org/articles/tiberagoldengreekcare.htm

Please read this entire link. With special attention to the indoor set up and the medical considerations for this species.....

I would make sure that your torts enclosure does not ever fall below 85 degrees (day and night) I would soak your tort as you have been doing but I would assure that the water remains warm the entire soak and that you make sure that there is no draft while he is soaking.

I would make sure that your vet is in tune with this species of tort BEFORE you let the vet do anything or diagnose anything (especially visually diagnose).

May we see a picture of your tort? A pic that shows his face and legs as well as a profile shot of the entire tort?

 

[Mjdeisher]

http://www.chelonia.org/articles/tiberagoldengreekcare.htm

Please read this entire link. With special attention to the indoor set up and the medical considerations for this species.....

I would make sure that your torts enclosure does not ever fall below 85 degrees (day and night) I would soak your tort as you have been doing but I would assure that the water remains warm the entire soak and that you make sure that there is no draft while he is soaking.

I would make sure that your vet is in tune with this species of tort BEFORE you let the vet do anything or diagnose anything (especially visually diagnose).

May we see a picture of your tort? A pic that shows his face and legs as well as a profile shot of the entire tort?

My tort is an Ibera. He is captive bred. Got him from Tyler at tortoise supply. I did a ton of research beforehand and have actually read that article. The only thing I have different is the humidity which I've been told, for a baby, to keep it a little higher since they are more prone to dehydration. During his soaks, I do change out the water about every 10 min because it gets cool. I'll start doing it where there's no draft. That's a good idea... I'm also very leery of new vets, but, I am located on the campus of the only vet school in the state, Purdue. So we typically have pretty good care up here. I'll take him to the university if I have to, I swear I will! Lol. I'm a determined momma! Oh, and I have pictures for days..l so you asked for it.

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Notice his white eyelids in a few of the pics...

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And some more...

 

[ascott]

If your little ones eyes still look like that I would get this baby to a qualified reptile vet as soon as you are able to.....in the meantime;

I would do warm water baby food soaks (carrot or squash or something that is high in vitamin A--but would not suggest any vitamin a injections unless your vet is a premium tortoise vet and can administer correct dosages--if not, then that injection can create a bunch of other issues due to incorrect dosage amounts commonly given) I would pour half of the jar of baby food into a smaller soaking dish along with the warm water and you can place the soaking dish directly under one of your heating lights to keep the water warm and then this way you can let him soak for a good hour and still have warm water if you have a night black light or ceramic heat emitter that would be better than a bright light...I actually would suggest that you not use a bright basking lamp but would suggest a black night heat lamp so that your tort can get some relief from the harsh bright basking lamp....

Do you take your tort outside a little at least three or four times a week? If not, please get this little one outside for some natural sun...but make sure that he can get out of the direct sun if he begins to heat up ---and younger torts do heat up quicker and easier than an adult...

Also, I would be sure to keep his enclosure temps at no less than 85 degrees (even in the night) especially if you are using the high humidity method....sometimes folks do not realize how quickly a wet or moist enclosure environment creeps to high humidity when the heating source goes off at night...once that heat source goes off and the temps begin to drop that is when the hazard for illness increases....now, if you are going to use the high humidity method you absolutely must keep the temps no lower than 80 degrees as a normal practice ....however, if you have an ailing tort the first thing you want to remember is to bump the temps to no less than 85--elevated temps (however, not baking temps ) allow a torts immune system to bump into overdrive and this can play a huge part in the recovery of a tort.....

The eyes of your tort are what worries me the most....the eyes are a significant gauge for telling what is going on with a tort...and when they become primarily swollen shut and turn that color that is a clear sign something has gone awry.....

Please keep us in the loop as to your torts progress after you have done the temp bump and the baby food and warm water soaks....okay?

 

[Mjdeisher]

Thank you, thank you, thank you!!! It is a little more dramatic in those pics because i had the flash on. I'll take some more when i wake him up in just a minute w/o flash.

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He was obviously not awake yet... But he seems to be drinking the carrot soak. Gosh, I hope he perks up today... :-( I work until mid afternoon, I'll get him outside after I get home. I can't put him in the grass at my apartment because of fertilizers but I have a balcony.

 

[Mjdeisher]

Should i just leave the black light on and no other lights for the day, do you think? It is staying at aprox 88 directly under the lamp and 84 off to the side where he normally sleeps. High enough? I can always move it closer. He didn't seem interested in breakfast but it was awful early. My boyfriend is keeping an eye on him while I'm at work (little guy is under 24 hour survaillence practically). I can't even start to count how many times i woke up last night and went yo check and see if he moved.

 

[GBtortoises]

For starters, your Greek tortoise (which appears to be Testudo (gracea) ibera) is much too hot most of the time based on your temperature descriptions. Directly under the basking light should be about 90-100 for babies. A 100watt bulb probably produces much more heat than that unless it is well over 12" away. How close is the basking light measured from the tip of the bulb to the substrate? How close is the UV light?

The cool end of the enclosure during the day should be in the low 70's. The warmer end, which is heated by the residual heat given off by the basking light will and should generally be in the low 80's. The night time temperatures should be in the high 50's to mid 60's (65 or lower) at the most. Consistently high temperatures are a recipe for a baby tortoise constantly having to battle with dehydration, regardless of how often it's being soaked. Soaking doesn't guarantee that the animal is always drinking. If the tortoise is in a constant state of dehydration they will rarely eat and digest food correctly. What is the ambient humidity in the enclosure and hot moist or dry is the substrate? These factors both also aid in hydration and are equally as important as the tortoises water intake.

No one here can diagnose your tortoise as being ill. But based on the conditions that you describe, I believe that your tortoise is trapped in an overheated environment that it cannot escape. If that is the case, dehydration may have already taken it's toll on the tortoises digestive system which may lead to not eating.

Keeping your tortoise hot, above 85 degrees constantly will for sure, lead to more problems. Ibera Greeks are temperate climate tortoises, that are evolved to survive very well in a seasonally changing environment. This means moderately warm days (70s-mid 80's) and cooler nights (50's-low 60's). When kept constantly warm they will often go into aestivation. Babies in high temperatures are at even more health risk because of their low body mass. The bottom line is that babies heat up, cool off and dehydrate much quicker than adults. Adding more heat is just adding more problems.

Cool things down, add suitable moisture to the substrate, spray everything twice daily (including newly added food), keep a shallow water dish at substrate level and continue to soak at least once a day. By doing this, unless your tortoise does have other health problems, you may see a big difference within a week.

 

[Mjdeisher]

For starters, your Greek tortoise (which appears to be Testudo (gracea) ibera) is much too hot most of the time based on your temperature descriptions. Directly under the basking light should be about 90-100 for babies. A 100watt bulb probably produces much more heat than that unless it is well over 12" away. How close is the basking light measured from the tip of the bulb to the substrate? How close is the UV light?

The cool end of the enclosure during the day should be in the low 70's. The warmer end, which is heated by the residual heat given off by the basking light will and should generally be in the low 80's. The night time temperatures should be in the high 50's to mid 60's (65 or lower) at the most. Consistently high temperatures are a recipe for a baby tortoise constantly having to battle with dehydration, regardless of how often it's being soaked. Soaking doesn't guarantee that the animal is always drinking. If the tortoise is in a constant state of dehydration they will rarely eat and digest food correctly. What is the ambient humidity in the enclosure and hot moist or dry is the substrate? These factors both also aid in hydration and are equally as important as the tortoises water intake.

No one here can diagnose your tortoise as being ill. But based on the conditions that you describe, I believe that your tortoise is trapped in an overheated environment that it cannot escape. If that is the case, dehydration may have already taken it's toll on the tortoises digestive system which may lead to not eating.

Keeping your tortoise hot, above 85 degrees constantly will for sure, lead to more problems. Ibera Greeks are temperate climate tortoises, that are evolved to survive very well in a seasonally changing environment. This means moderately warm days (70s-mid 80's) and cooler nights (50's-low 60's). When kept constantly warm they will often go into aestivation. Babies in high temperatures are at even more health risk because of their low body mass. The bottom line is that babies heat up, cool off and dehydrate much quicker than adults. Adding more heat is just adding more problems.

Cool things down, add suitable moisture to the substrate, spray everything twice daily (including newly added food), keep a shallow water dish at substrate level and continue to soak at least once a day. By doing this, unless your tortoise does have other health problems, you may see a big difference within a week.

it was 86 under the bulb when i left this morning. ill keep it around there. Wouldn't he go to the cooler side if he was to hot though? That's what i don't understand, if i put him in the cool side, he goes to the basking light. What do you think about ascotts suggestion to leave the lights off for now? I keep his substrate pretty moist because the room he's in is dry. I spray the whole thing down twice a day already. I've got coco coir and sphagnum moss in there right now on top. See pics above. And he of course has water 24/7.

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Do you honestly think it's reversible? I've got people saying to keep him warmer and people saying cool him down. I'm going to go gray soon...our worry myself sick

 

[Laurie]

I believe Angela is saying to keep him warm because he is sick. That's not for all the time. It is likely however that he his sick from dehydration due to being kept too warm ALL the time. Nobody can diagnose over the Internet though. Im sure if you contact Tyler he can give you advice too. In my opinion it's a heating issue and I would do as GB suggested. Good luck, keep us updated.

 

[Mjdeisher]

I believe Angela is saying to keep him warm because he is sick. That's not for all the time. It is likely however that he his sick from dehydration due to being kept too warm ALL the time. Nobody can diagnose over the Internet though. Im sure if you contact Tyler he can give you advice too. In my opinion it's a heating issue and I would do as GB suggested. Good luck, keep us updated.

I emailed Tyler. Thanks. I'm hoping for the best and trying to make him better in any way possible. From the update this morning, he dug himself a hole and went to sleep after i left for work... Only time and a vet visit can tell. :-/

 

[GBtortoises]

I believe Angela is saying to keep him warm because he is sick. That's not for all the time. It is likely however that he his sick from dehydration due to being kept too warm ALL the time. Nobody can diagnose over the Internet though. Im sure if you contact Tyler he can give you advice too. In my opinion it's a heating issue and I would do as GB suggested. Good luck, keep us updated.

I emailed Tyler. Thanks. I'm hoping for the best and trying to make him better in any way possible. From the update this morning, he dug himself a hole and went to sleep after i left for work... Only time and a vet visit can tell. :-/

Yes, I understand why the excessive 24 hour a day heat was suggested. But I would not automatically "assume" that your tortoise is sick and turn up the heat without first analyzing it's living conditions and the tortoise itself. Is the tortoise's skin puffy? Is it's limbs limp or does it have strength in them? Does it open it's eyes when picked up (or placed in water)? Has it lately or does it defecate on a regular basis? Is it urinating regularly or just taking water in? Does it become active when placed in water or outdoors?
And did it just dig a shallow pallet or did it completely bury itself after you left for work? Sick tortoises don't bury themselves.

 

[Mjdeisher]

Yes, I understand why the excessive 24 hour a day heat was suggested. But I would not automatically "assume" that your tortoise is sick and turn up the heat without first analyzing it's living conditions and the tortoise itself. Is the tortoise's skin puffy? Is it's limbs limp or does it have strength in them? Does it open it's eyes when picked up (or placed in water)? Has it lately or does it defecate on a regular basis? Is it urinating regularly or just taking water in? Does it become active when placed in water or outdoors?
And did it just dig a shallow pallet or did it completely bury itself after you left for work? Sick tortoises don't bury themselves.

He may be a little puffy towards the inside of the shell. His limbs are limp some of the time if I just touch them. But his back legs will kick back. He does open his eyes for a bit when moved or put in water. He was pooping on a normal basis. At the moment he has not been active when place out doors or in water.

I do need to tell everyone about what just happened maybe 10 min ago. Scariest experience of my life... I am sitting outside with him so he can get a little sun and breeze. I soak him for a few minutes in nice warm water. I put him in the water and he just starts freaking out! Trying to climb the walls, trying to escape, running up and down the sides. I thought he was going to give himself a heart attack. Then BOOM! He poops as if he has never pooped in his life! I'm thinking to myself, o my god...he's dead, he's expelled at the excrement from his body and now he's going to be dead. So as I'm bawling my eyes out, he perks his head up out of the water and looks at me like, can I come out now? And he is still very sleepy and sick acting but I swear, seems like he has his eyes open and is more alert. He's eve walking around the balcony as I type. Could he of been constipated or had some sort of blockage? If he would just take a bite of food, I could breathe easy again...

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Look who is a little perkier after having a massive poop.

 

[Laurie]

If you think he is puffy and limp, I think you should bring him to a vet.

Struggling to get out of water and defecating while trying to do so is normal. I don't think constipation would cause his little eyes to turn whitish and close up. Again, I think this is probably because if overheating/dehydration. However, if you are seeing other signs if illness (swelling,limpness, weepy eyes), I would get him to the vet ASAP and get some professional advice. Please be aware that vitamin injections can be harmful and you may not want the vet to administer them.

 

[Mjdeisher]

Update from this morning, Paul had another solid BM last night. He is seeming a little better just because he isn't limp anymore. He's holding his head up, responding to touch, and was trotting around the balcony last night before it got cold. Today he still hasn't ate. Seems to just want to sleep. He's opening his eyes and checking stuff out when I pick him up though. Vet visit got pushed back to Monday. emergency happened I guess. The receptionist at the exotic vet mentioned a vitamin c deficiency making his eyes swell...thoughts on that?

Eugh, wish the little bug would just eat... People would think I'm crazy (and I'm pretty sure my boyfriend does) if they heard me talking to Paul... "please eat for mommy, it would make her feel a whole lot better!"... Haha, I've lost my mind worrying over this little guy.