Greek problem

[ekltestevez]

Hi everyone,
My name is Cassie and I am the proud owner of 2 Ibera Greek tort's.
I did quite a bit of research on tort's before purchasing mine. I didn't want a giant. My husbands always thought the sulcata's were great but when I showed him how big the would get in just 2 years he was amazed.
I ended up purchasing my 2 greek tort's, they stay pretty small for a tort and we would always have room for them.
As of now my hubby and I have built a 7' by 4' tort table and we are building an area in the backyard for them.
I will be taking 1 to the vet soon because I think she has a parasite. They started out the same size and now one is twice the size of the other within just a few months it's like she never hit this growth spurt the other one did. She eats and drinks has nice glassy eyes, clean nose, she's active, but no growth. And instead of being dense she feels she's very light when I ick her up. It's like she eats ,she's heavy, then she goes to the ebathroom and she's light again.
I've had them for a little over a year now and I believe both tort's are females. I'll get some pics so you can make sure. Yes, they do live together and the larger tort (Lily) definatley has a dominate personality.
Shady, the smaller tort, has always been shy.
They eat on seperate plates next to each other, but Shady doesn't finish hers she'll eat a little and go rest under the light and then come back later for more.
I'm going to seperate them during feeding for a while and see what happens.I feed them around 9 or 10 everyday, a pile of greens about a hand full a each.

Is there a way to know exactly how much to feed them?
I feed them Mustard, Turnip greens,escarole, endive, collard occasionally. And we are currently trying to grow some of their natural diet ouside. It's mediterranean tort seed mix I purchased. I feed them a piece of fruit maybe every 3-4 weeks. I soak them once a week and offer water daily. I have Timothy hay in there table at all times and offer bermuda grass also.
I have a uva/uvb strip light, but since finding out about the MegaRay I want to replace it with one of those.
I discussed this with a trusted friend of mine and this is what he had to say.
"The first thing that would come to my mind is not parasite, but that the other tort is the more dominant one, and may be keeping the smaller female from eating. This happens a lot with reptiles, and why the largest enclosure size possible is best. When the smaller one is stressed and kept from the resources by the more dominant one, this cycle spirals. The smaller one only gets more stressed and more emaciated with time.
I would say try to house or at least feed them separately for a while, both with good diet and UVB exposure, and see if the smaller one improves. It could also be very likely that the larger tortoise is the abnormal one. I am not sure how large they are at this point, but overfeeding and especially feeding excess protein in tortoises can lead to abnormally fast growth."
What do you think about this?
Does anyone agree or disagree or have any other ideas on what I should do?

 

[Meg90]

I think you should seperate them for good. Your smaller tortoise is very obviously being bullied, whether you have seen them go at it or not.

This is Tank and Turbo (photo's courtesy of TanknTurbo--was tired of posting a link instead of actual pictures)

They were purchased as hatchlings, together, and always housed that way. As you can see, they are the same size and species, so most people think that that would be just fine.

However, take a look at this:

This is how they grew up, or should I say, one of them grew. Tank, became the dominant tortoise. And even though they were the same age, species, and given the same care, only one of them flourished because by tortoise "law" he won the territory and had rights to all the resources therein (food, basking spots etc).Turbo only took what was left over, and never had enough of anything to grow at a normal rate.

Little Turbo has been in a seperate enclosure now, and is starting to grow normally.

The story of your Greeks is almost identical to this. IMO, you should keep them seperate for the rest of their lives.

 

[CGKeith]

Welcome to the forum!

I have quite a range of sizes in my Ibera group. Some of the adults vary in size especially from male to female. My smallest adult is my oldest (male) at just under 6 ", My largest (female) is around 11" and my oldest female is around 8".

You may have a male and a female.

It would be hard to say that there is something wrong, without knowing a little more about them. Are they wild caught or captive bred. What are the ages, if you know.

Also, pics would be a big help. Please post some pics as soon as you get a chance and I am sure there will be others here that can give some insight.

 

[bettinge]

CGKeith, how many do you house together? Or do you keep them seperate! Do you have noticable signs of bullying? Dod you keep them together before they were adults?

 

[CGKeith]

Actually, the only bullying I have seen was a couple of months ago when the 2 females I just mentioned were involved. Only it was the little one pushing the big one around (Very much like my males do to the females when they want to mate) to the point that she even stood up on the other ones back like she was mounting her and was making the typical noises that the males make when mating. (Yes, she is female. I have the babies to prove it. )

But, it also had noting to do with eating. It wasn't like she was trying to keep the other one away from the food.

I have a few different groups, as well as different sub-species, and the one thing I have noticed is that (among the adults) the females get to the food first.

I haven't seen the bullying from any of my Greeks, while young.

Of those that I have raised together, I haven't seen the type of size difference that Meg has pictured.

Mine seem more to have the same rate of growth (while young) up to a point which the males are getting close to adult size, then they seem to slow down and the females hit that point and just keep going.

That being said, not all tortoises are going to act the same. They have different personalities and you have to make adjustments as the need arises. Obviously if there is a problem I would do just what Meg said above.

 

[ekltestevez]

Hey everyone,
Thanks for the great response I tried other tort forums and its been 3 days and I haven't heard anything.. Geez
Anyway, I have some pics and they are very similar to Megs, I don't have any younger pics of them but the smaller tort has only grown about an inch or so length wise. There was only about a 1/2 inch difference when I got them and I took some bottom pics so you can be sure of the sex.
I've bought them when they where yearlings and I have had them or almost a year now.
They have always lived together ,but I guess thats going to change .
They are captive bred.
I don't see any bulling behavior except they both want to lay in their food while they eat. That's why they eat in seperate dishes.
The only bulling eye see is when Lily, the larger tort, tries biting..meanie! lol
If have to house them inside seperate so.. does that mean I need separate outside pens or can I just make sure the pen is big enough?
Thanks
Cassie

 

[Nay]

ekltestevez, welcome

http://tinypic.com/?t=postupload

Hi, I don't know how to make that a hyperlink, but someone just gave me this site and although I am not sure I am using it as well as I can, I can shrink my pics and then find them in my files and add them as an attachment.. If you can get someone to help you make them part of the actual post, please pass that along to me, I haven't been able to do that, yet.. Good Luck Na

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Oh, it made it a hyperlink for me!!! When I went to add my reply!

 

[ekltestevez]

ekltestevez, welcome

http://tinypic.com/?t=postupload

Hi, I don't know how to make that a hyperlink, but someone just gave me this site and although I am not sure I am using it as well as I can, I can shrink my pics and then find them in my files and add them as an attachment.. If you can get someone to help you make them part of the actual post, please pass that along to me, I haven't been able to do that, yet.. Good Luck Na

---

Oh, it made it a hyperlink for me!!! When I went to add my reply!

---

My hubby said just crop and resize in photo editor!!
It worked

 

[Maggie Cummings]

This is important...bullying is also mental. Sometimes you don't see physical bullying. Meg's post is seriously important so I would read it and believe her real life story and separate those 2 tortoises... Thanks Meg!

 

[Meg90]

Yeah, and by the looks of it, the one on the right in the picture of their bellies (Lily?) looks to be very male, the smaller one, Shady, I think is female, I would need closer, clearer photos of both to be sure.....

Here's a picture of my little Greek (Jordanian) she is 3.5 inches SCL and confirmed female...Short, stubby tails that don't move to the side mean female, longer, thinner tails mean male (usually-it varies in dif species)

It's uncanny how we can watch them, and watch them and see nothing wrong, but there could be a big problem anyways.

Two seperate indoor enclosures is best IMO, but if your outdoor pen is large enough, with enough hiding spots, they may do ok outside together.

Care to post some pictures of your set up? What bulb are you using for UVB? It looks like they are doing very well so far.

 

[ekltestevez]

Here's the pics
I never noticed that it you touched Shady's tail it doesn't really curve to the side like Lily's. The tails seem to look the same to me the only difference is when you touch is Lily's moves to the side.
I guess its not "lily" anymore ..

 

[Meg90]

Hmm. Shady is definitely a female....I am not sure about Lily. My gut is saying male, but I have been wrong on occasion

Robyn (Crazy1) or Danny (EgyptianDan) would be helpful here....Danny is gone till the 26th though, so I guess we'll have to wait for Robyn to give a second opinion!

 

[CGKeith]

Meg, I agree with you. I thought the same thing when I looked at the pics.

I also agree with keeping them apart in indoor enclosures. Give Shady a chance to catch up and even pass up Lily...or.. ummm Billy???

 

[ekltestevez]

I looked some pics up online and alot of them say the bottom of the shell is also different

 

[Meg90]

If you'll notice, on your two it is. The V on the girl is much more rounded, and not as wide as the V on your male

 

[ekltestevez]

Wow your right . When I posted them I didn't take the time to compare for myself.
Can you tell there ages when they are yearlings ?

 

[Meg90]

I'm thinking that they are older than two years....the male is quite large for a two year old. Do you have any pictures of them when you first got them? I might be able to guesstimate for you.

 

[ekltestevez]

I apologize, I've had them for 2 years which would make them about 3.
But in the pics "tort measure" . If you look at Lily, she was as big as Shady is now when I got them and Shady was about a half an inch or so smaller than she is now.
The reason I asked the yearling question is because I asked the breeder for a pair but he never let me know for sure what sex they were.
And when they arrived they looked to be female.

 

[Meg90]

Well, that's probable then. That they are three years old...your girl is just tiny because of the bullying. My female Greek that I posted the picture of, Anouk is only like 11 months and already 3.5 scl

Here's a great way to measure them, to get exact measurements http://www.tlady.clara.net/measure.htm its the method I use.

You definitely got your pair

 

[CGKeith]

Do you still have contact info for the breeder that you bought them from?

If so, ask them if they can tell you how old they were when they were sent to you.

Some breeders keep very good records and they may be able to give you hatch dates.

It is worth a try.