Greek subspecies identification?

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Hello,

I was wondering if anybody could help me identify which subspecies of Greek I own?

I purchased these two at the beginning of the year with all the appropriate certificates provided, however it simply states 'T. Graeca' with no subspecies declared. When talking with the breeders (a local couple), they tolc me they weren't sure of the subspecies and had never bothered to think about it.


After doing some of my own research over the past couple of weeks, it seems the two most commonly kept Greeks here in the UK are Testudo Graeca Graeca and Testudo Graeca Nabeulensis.

Aftering finding that out, I attempted to find any more information on identification between the two species, but I didn't have much luck...


I believe they may be Nabeul Torts, but I'm not experienced enough to say with any certainty. My only reasons for this are they descriptions, of which these are closer to Nebeulensis than Graeca.

They have the light sandy blonde carapice with very dark 'splodges' on the middle of each scute, they have the yellowish facial 'mask' markings that Graeca seems to lack (going from photos for comparison) and their Plaston markings appear to resemble Nabeul more than Graeca in my opinion.

It would be amazing if someone with more experience could help me to narrow this down.

Thanks.

 

[Gillian M]

@Yvonne G
@Tom

please help.
Than you.

 

[Tom]

This is a question for @HermanniChris or @GBtortoises

 

[Gillian M]

This is a question for @HermanniChris or @GBtortoises

Sorry for the mistake, Tom.

 

[Yvonne G]

. . . or @TeamZissou

 

[TeamZissou]

It's tough to tell with babies, but if I had to guess, I would say Nabeulensis based mainly on the first vertebral scute having straight sides. Granted, the more curved sides as seen on Testudo graeca graeca could take a while to develop, and might not yet show at a young age. The plastrons also look very similar to what is shown on HermanniChris' website for nabeulensis:

Nabeul Tortoise | hermannihavenhome

www.hermannihaven.com

If you are still in contact with the breeders, the easier thing to do would be to ask them for some photos of the parents, which should be more easily identifiable. T. g. graeca are quite a bit larger than nabeulensis, which are the smallest subspecies of Greek.

Comparing Greek Tortoises | hermannihavenhome

www.hermannihaven.com

Be sure to keep the humidity up for these guys, it looks like you're starting to see some curling at the scute boundaries indicating conditions that are too dry.

@PA2019 also has some nabeulensis, so might be able to provide some thoughts as well.

 

[CoreCollapse]

It's tough to tell with babies, but if I had to guess, I would say Nabeulensis based mainly on the first vertebral scute having straight sides. Granted, the more curved sides as seen on Testudo graeca graeca could take a while to develop, and might not yet show at a young age. The plastrons also look very similar to what is shown on HermanniChris' website for nabeulensis:

Nabeul Tortoise | hermannihavenhome

www.hermannihaven.com

If you are still in contact with the breeders, the easier thing to do would be to ask them for some photos of the parents, which should be more easily identifiable. T. g. graeca are quite a bit larger than nabeulensis, which are the smallest subspecies of Greek.

Comparing Greek Tortoises | hermannihavenhome

www.hermannihaven.com

Be sure to keep the humidity up for these guys, it looks like you're starting to see some curling at the scute boundaries indicating conditions that are too dry.

@PA2019 also has some nabeulensis, so might be able to provide some thoughts as well.

Thanks for the reply.

I wasn't aware of the vertical scute being an indentifying characteristic, but I'll be sure to bare that in mind for future reference and keep my eye on the shape as it develops.

I had actually been using HermanniChris' site to help me narrow down the list to what fit the most when I came to my idea that my two might be Nabeulensis, so it's good to know I was using reputable and well known sites.

Unfortunately I've not had any luck contacting the breeders, but if I do get a response from them then I'll definitely do that. Funnily, mentioning the size difference between T.g.Graeca and T.g.Nabeulensis jogged my memory a little. I can remember asking the breeder how big their parents were when we were discussing their other Torts - the guy told me "Not very big, about this" and held his fingers up probably no more than 5-6 inches apart. Knowing Graeca Graeca are considerably larger than that, I'm certainly leaning towards the possibility of these two being little Nabeuls.

Noted! Thank you for pointing that out - I had no idea that the curling was even a problem. I actually assumed it must have been the shell just growing since it looks slightly transparent, but I'll be sure to crank the humidity up a little more.

I have read that Nabeulensis are more delicate to being too wet or too dry than their larger cousins - is there an ideal range I should be aiming to keep them at where it win't risk staying too wet for an extended period?


Thanks again!

 

[TeamZissou]

Thanks for the reply.

I wasn't aware of the vertical scute being an indentifying characteristic, but I'll be sure to bare that in mind for future reference and keep my eye on the shape as it develops.

I had actually been using HermanniChris' site to help me narrow down the list to what fit the most when I came to my idea that my two might be Nabeulensis, so it's good to know I was using reputable and well known sites.

Unfortunately I've not had any luck contacting the breeders, but if I do get a response from them then I'll definitely do that. Funnily, mentioning the size difference between T.g.Graeca and T.g.Nabeulensis jogged my memory a little. I can remember asking the breeder how big their parents were when we were discussing their other Torts - the guy told me "Not very big, about this" and held his fingers up probably no more than 5-6 inches apart. Knowing Graeca Graeca are considerably larger than that, I'm certainly leaning towards the possibility of these two being little Nabeuls.

Noted! Thank you for pointing that out - I had no idea that the curling was even a problem. I actually assumed it must have been the shell just growing since it looks slightly transparent, but I'll be sure to crank the humidity up a little more.

I have read that Nabeulensis are more delicate to being too wet or too dry than their larger cousins - is there an ideal range I should be aiming to keep them at where it win't risk staying too wet for an extended period?


Thanks again!

The sides of the first vertebral scute on north Africa Greeks seems to be reliably curved, look for it on adult marokkensis, graeca, cyrenaica.

That seems like a good indicator from the breeders on the size. Too bad they flaked out on you and wouldn't provide more info.

There just appears to be the beginning of some curling on your third and fourth pictures, which seem to be the same tortoise. The third pic seems to have smoother new growth at the scute boundary from what I can see.

I saw that statement on Chris' website too. I do not keep them myself, so I assume it means that the substrate should not be excessively wet and they don't need daily humidity in the 75%+ range. In this thread, PA2019 shared his humidity data, which shows it going up to 80% at night in some areas of the setup, with other areas in the 70%'s during the day. I would think that would be enough to keep them from pyramiding. In general, even sensitive tortoise species, even Egyptians can handle humidity into the 70%s, as long as the temps get high enough during the day. Cold and wet is problematic. Most closed chambers have a daily cycle where it will dry out some during the day and rise at night after the lights go off, when the humidity isn't being burned off by the warm bulbs.

This thread is good too:

nabeulensis setups/experiences

Hey all, I'm seriously considering branching out of star tortoises and working with nabeulensis. Their small size, color pattern and opposite care to what I am used to really intrigue me. I know C. Leone is the only one consistently breeding them in the US. Is there anyone on here with Nabeul...

tortoiseforum.org

 

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The sides of the first vertebral scute on north Africa Greeks seems to be reliably curved, look for it on adult marokkensis, graeca, cyrenaica.

That seems like a good indicator from the breeders on the size. Too bad they flaked out on you and wouldn't provide more info.

There just appears to be the beginning of some curling on your third and fourth pictures, which seem to be the same tortoise. The third pic seems to have smoother new growth at the scute boundary from what I can see.

I saw that statement on Chris' website too. I do not keep them myself, so I assume it means that the substrate should not be excessively wet and they don't need daily humidity in the 75%+ range. In this thread, PA2019 shared his humidity data, which shows it going up to 80% at night in some areas of the setup, with other areas in the 70%'s during the day. I would think that would be enough to keep them from pyramiding. In general, even sensitive tortoise species, even Egyptians can handle humidity into the 70%s, as long as the temps get high enough during the day. Cold and wet is problematic. Most closed chambers have a daily cycle where it will dry out some during the day and rise at night after the lights go off, when the humidity isn't being burned off by the warm bulbs.

This thread is good too:

nabeulensis setups/experiences

Hey all, I'm seriously considering branching out of star tortoises and working with nabeulensis. Their small size, color pattern and opposite care to what I am used to really intrigue me. I know C. Leone is the only one consistently breeding them in the US. Is there anyone on here with Nabeul...

tortoiseforum.org

Brilliant, cheers for the knowledge! I'm sure that will deff come in handy at some point in the future.

Yeah, it sucks but the breeders were an older couple who were both teachers as a full profession so my assumption is that I'll eventually get a reply in the near future when they aren't as busy in their real careers. They told us that they had been breeding Torts for over 11 years with great success and sell clutches every year so I fully trust them and nothing at all told me that they were suspicious - just slightly unknowledgeable! Then again, I like to research to the extreme, so maybe I'm the strange one here. Who knows.


Hmm, are the photos displayed in the same order for everybody? For me, the third and fourth photos are two different Torts. The third is the top of Kurmas head to show his yellow markings, and the fourth is of Guylian snipping at a Danelion leaf? I have upped their humidity to the mid 70s and I'll continue to monitor that curling either way Is there anything else that could cause that sort of curling such as dietry issues or is it purely linked to humidity? Also, will it fix itself if corrected or is it similar to pyramiding in how it's a permanent deformation?

This is all fantastic information you're helping to get out there for those of us housing Nabeuls! Thank you so much. There seems to be so little reliable, reputable information around the internet for these stunning Torts.

 

[TeamZissou]

Maybe I was off on the photo order. The tort with the black spot on its nuchal scute (dandelion + SpaceX tort) looks a little curled/dry at the scute boundary. The other tort without the black spot looks like it has smoother new growth lines. Aside from humidity, you can rub coconut oil on the carapace a few times per week to keep the fresh keratin at the scute boundaries hydrated/flexible.

Pyramiding is really only related to hydration/dryness of the new keratin. Many old published books said there were dietary issues, but none of that was correct. I even read one that said pyramiding was an evolved feature that prevented tortoises from flipping/allowed them to flip back more easily! In addition to humidity, very hot lights or excessively powerful UV light can also contribute to pyramiding as well. Low ambient temperatures leading to excessive basking/sleeping under the basking lamp even without very hot basking lights can contribute as well.

Ultimately what you're seeing is not major and won't be noticeable once the tort is larger, but in general it's there to stay. All you can change is new growth.

 

[CoreCollapse]

Maybe I was off on the photo order. The tort with the black spot on its nuchal scute (dandelion + SpaceX tort) looks a little curled/dry at the scute boundary. The other tort without the black spot looks like it has smoother new growth lines. Aside from humidity, you can rub coconut oil on the carapace a few times per week to keep the fresh keratin at the scute boundaries hydrated/flexible.

Pyramiding is really only related to hydration/dryness of the new keratin. Many old published books said there were dietary issues, but none of that was correct. I even read one that said pyramiding was an evolved feature that prevented tortoises from flipping/allowed them to flip back more easily! In addition to humidity, very hot lights or excessively powerful UV light can also contribute to pyramiding as well. Low ambient temperatures leading to excessive basking/sleeping under the basking lamp even without very hot basking lights can contribute as well.

Ultimately what you're seeing is not major and won't be noticeable once the tort is larger, but in general it's there to stay. All you can change is new growth.

No problem! It just confused me a little Oddly enough, looking back to the photos of when we very first got them, I noticed the same curling on the shell on the same Tort when he/she was much younger, but not the darker one. This got me wondering a few things and after spending some time on google this evening. I actually found a few other people on this forum and a few other reptile forums out there asking about 'curling' in their Greeks shells. Of course, they were super old posts, but it seems many Testudos have a natural curl/flair/fling to the edge of the scutes, especially around the rear legs. Comparing to the photos of other peoples, I think it may actually be the shape of his/her shell. There are a couple of reasons I think it's the natural shale... To start with, it has been that way since we got them at 3 and a half months old, it doesn't look to be progressing or developing in a negative or unhealthy way and I've seen other Torts with much more extreme 'curling' than Guylian and everybody has said that it's normal and more common in females, so I'm not particularly concerned too much.

Secondly, both of the torts live on the same diet and have the same set ups placed next to eachother in the same room, with all the same equipment to keep them happy. Both are handled the same, given baths daily, drink daily and bury themselves almost completely in the lower, damp substrate layers... They spend the same amount if time basking and sleeping, they literwlly do everything together but seperately. It's hilarious because they have individually-matching routines and they don't even know it. With that said, I can't see why one of them would display a symptom of a shell deformity beginning but the other wouldn't when they're kept under identical conditions?

I'll be sure to keep that humidity cranked regardless and see how things go!

 

[TeamZissou]

I think we're talking about different spots. I added a few arrows to show the area I'm talking about. The new growth comes at the scute boundaries, and when the new keratin is dry it curls downward. This has also been described as being sort of a deep groove at the boundary, at least at the beginning. Over time in dry conditions, this forms humps on each individual scute, or pyramids in extreme conditions. To me, this one looks like it may have been a little too dry for maybe the last 1-2 months for the very new growth. It is tough to tell for sure unless you wait. Keeping the humidity high is the best way to ward it off. The flairing of the marginal scutes that you mentioned is totally natural and isn't an issue.

As for the differences between the two, it' anyone's guess. While the overall nominal conditions may be the same, micro climates within each separate enclosure might slightly different. The humidity inside one hide might be higher, or one tort could be more outgoing and not feel the need to hide as much, thus being in slightly drier areas on average. One may also bask more for whatever reason.

At any rate, no big issues at all. They look great and you are well informed, so I am sure you'll end up with great looking torts!

 

[CoreCollapse]

I think we're talking about different spots. I added a few arrows to show the area I'm talking about. The new growth comes at the scute boundaries, and when the new keratin is dry it curls downward. This has also been described as being sort of a deep groove at the boundary, at least at the beginning. Over time in dry conditions, this forms humps on each individual scute, or pyramids in extreme conditions. To me, this one looks like it may have been a little too dry for maybe the last 1-2 months for the very new growth. It is tough to tell for sure unless you wait. Keeping the humidity high is the best way to ward it off. The flairing of the marginal scutes that you mentioned is totally natural and isn't an issue.

As for the differences between the two, it' anyone's guess. While the overall nominal conditions may be the same, micro climates within each separate enclosure might slightly different. The humidity inside one hide might be higher, or one tort could be more outgoing and not feel the need to hide as much, thus being in slightly drier areas on average. One may also bask more for whatever reason.

At any rate, no big issues at all. They look great and you are well informed, so I am sure you'll end up with great looking torts!
View attachment 346050

Ah! I was looking in the completely wrong spot - my mistake! I completely see it now, the clear raised lip around the edges of the scutes that make the boundaries appear like deep grooves between each plate. I hadn't noticed that before, so thank you very much for making it clearer!
What you said regarding the different microclimates and activity levels would also make perfect sense in my opinion. Guylian (Space-X Tort) is a little more active than Kurma (the darker chap), who tends to burrow deeper and spend more time around the water bowl. Guyl is usually trudging around, climbing on the stones and cork hides, so I can see that being a big cause in the difference, since he/she is probably drying out more often or faster than the darker one... On top of that, he/she usually sleeps on the surface of the substrate instead of burrowing deeply, so it all makes sense now that I think about it!

Thank you so much for the help and words of encouragement!