greek tortoise idle, sleepy not taking food

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TedNY

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Hello,

I am new owner of a greek tortoise that is about a year old.
From the time i received him , which was 2 weeks ago he has gone from being idle to being very idle, sleepy and not taking any food.

He has been offered on a daily basis fresh food, greens and soaked food,
fresh water, warm soaks, even baby carrot food. He is located in good habitat per tortoise trust articles, so its not a matter of is environment.
(basking spot, uvb light on daily, kept at night 70 interior temp)

I am concerned that he wont last too long going like that and was wondering of any advise to help him or entice him to take food. I have tried the appetizer drops, which seemed to help once and he took a couple of bites from a dandelion i was offering but other than that he dont seem to open his eyes or move from the spot at any time. His eyes do appear a little puffy but when he opens them seem ok just that he closes them very fast and puts head down on the ground. No whizzing sounds, no other external signs of issues, just weaker every day.

I'd appreciate any input or advise
thank you
Ted


Attached a pic of him when i first got him.
 

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Yvonne G

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Hi Ted:

Welcome to the forum!!

The first thing I always think of when asked the question, "Why isn't my tortoise eating?" is that he's not warm enough.

Number one...little babies need to be kept a little warmer than big tortoises because they are so small...they cool off quicker than a larger tortoise...smaller body mass.

Do you have a UVB light? And what is the temperature inside the habitat...the cool side and the warm side and directly under the light?

Cool side should be around 75 degrees. Warm side should be around 85 degrees. Directly under the light should be from 100 to 115. If you can't get these temps, then you need to cover the habitat.

Put him into a small container of warm water to warm him up and hydrate him, then while he's soaking, tweek your habitat.

Good luck with him. You will be getting more helpful hints from other forum members. Take a good look at all the answers with an open mind and see what you can do to improve your baby's situation.
 

CGKeith

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The picture you have is of a newly hatched baby, not of one that is a year old.

They can grow to be 3"- 4" in the first year.

That being said they are very delicate at this small size.

My babies spend most of their time under the hottest part of the basking spot and usually bury themselves at night in the cypress mulch directly under the same hot spot.

I also provide a night time heat lamp (I use a basic black light bulb), and keep them warm through the night as well.

They don't eat a whole bunch the first few weeks after hatching, but then should become an eating machine.
 

TedNY

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I had no idea it was this young, i was told it was supposed to be about a year old. If that is the case then perhaps his behavior is ok?

If you dont mind, what is the temp under the basking spot and what temp do you maintain for night time?

I certainly appreciate any info and I will measure/weigh him to start collecting data on him.

Thank you






Hello Yvonne G
thank you for the info,
now that i know he is really a hatchling, then i will doublecheck the temps.
yes I have a UVB light and a basking light, will setup the night heat light as well, my temps were less for the hot spot.
Thank you
 

moswen

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welcome!!! he does look like a hatchling i agree. but a very cute one! one way you can tell if a tortoise has just hatched or not is to look on the top of his shell (carapace) and look inbetween the cracks in it, there should be a visible ring around each individual scute, this is a growth ring, and there should be 3 or so for a yearling. yvonne is a very good and experienced tort keeper and i think her temps are perfect for little hatchlings:

emysemys said:
Cool side should be around 75 degrees. Warm side should be around 85 degrees. Directly under the light should be from 100 to 115.

night time temps should not fall below 70 for right now. cold is a lot of the problem for torts that aren't eating. increase your temps and let us know!

what is your feeding regime? what does his habitat look like, ex: substrate, water dish, humid hide?
 

TedNY

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Thank you, I certainly did not keep the temps as high during the day and night. The weather was warmer last week when he was more active than now here in NY.

Feeding, well , worried with him not eating, I provide fresh food morning and afternoon, on top of small flat rocks! I include greens from the list found on another posting and soaked mazuri.
Water disk is a flat reptile dish , very easy to get into or reach the water as its at the same level as the substrate which is some red stuff cant recall the name. I did not provide a humid hide place except I manually spray one corner, he does have 2 of those hid half logs to go under, one in the center the other on the cool side.

He is being moved to a new home this thanksgiving holiday, built a box to mount the lights easier and provide a 3x3 feet space, which was thinking of spliting to half top soil, half pine? and the basking portion with a flat rock and pebbles. Got the Medmix from England planted on a big seed tray, and will stick portions of it in corners once it grows. Not sure what to do for a humid hide , a plant? Will certainly post pictures as soon as its completed.

Thank you so much to all for all the help here

Regards
 

moswen

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wow, sounds like you're on the right track other than temps! i have a picture of my humid hide box here:

http://tortoiseforum.org/Thread-time-for-a-new-spider-tortoise-post-pics-too

i stole the idea from tom but you can really use anything. you can use a pot turned on it's side, or stuff one of the half logs that you already have. you need to use sphagnum moss or leaves and dirt or something. i have sphagnum moss in mine, you can get it at a pet store it has a pic of a pacman frog on it. and yes, you'll have to spray it a lot! but when you get it in a box or with a top on it the moisture will evaporate much slower, so you won't have to spray it every day. i usually have been doing mine once a week or longer.

if i am correct you need to stay away from cedar, cedar and pine contain oils that are harmful for your tortoise's skin. i know pine for sure but i believe cedar is bad as well. you can use aspen, coco coir, or cypress mulch to mix in with the soil, some people are adding dry leaves to their soil mix right now if you want to try that. i'm using plain o'le cypress mulch and i do prefer it.

bump those temps and let us know how he does!
 

egyptiandan

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It is possible your Greek is a year old, but if it is it wasn't well cared for before you got him. :( Like Katerina's Sulcata, we are looking at the beginings of MBD. You need to soak him/her, with Vitasol for birds in the soaking water, at least once a day. You also need to be using a calcium supplement with vitamin D3.
Have you tried and Romaine lettuce? You need to find something that he/she will eat so you can put the calcium on. If you can't get him/her to eat anything after a few days of soaking in the vitasol water, than you'll have to get a liquid calcium to add to the water.

Danny
 

greeks

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Fluker's makes a liquid vitamin spray that you can find easily at the box pet stores and Zilla makes spray calcium also.

Littlest ones can be tough to hydrate and I noticed in my hatchling that died of hatchling failure, he was far less active between waterings and blatantly refused to eat. Try soaking your little one often if he/she is not drinking water and keep your humidity up (50-70%). I often mist the carapace of my Greeks too when I first put them under their basking lamps.
 

TedNY

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Hello All, and thank you again for the info.

so far, I have increased the temps as recommended by previous postings,
I give him daily a 15 min soak with carrot baby food mixed with herptivite multivitamin and rep-cal calcium with vitD phosphorus free, mixed in warm water, seems to take occasional sips of that. He did poop small orange quantity the other day.

Getting the vitasol tomorrow to add in the water / soak and see how he does with that, will certainly look for the spray but I think i will need to order that stuff.

I am thinking of giving him two warm soaks a day? a morning and an afternoon, will that be good idea to help him stay hydrated?

Today I hand fed him a piece of romaine lettuce, he ate about 1/2x1/2 worth of it before just wanting to go back to sleep.
I usually leave a bunch of different greens on one corner just in case he gets the desire, romaine, collard, dandelions and did not move him yet to the new place to avoid any additional stress with new surroundings.

I still dont see him move around or becoming a green eating machine, i pay good attention to the food i place, he usually remains very close or not far from the basking light at all times. Only once he moved away to a hide log, but even that was just 2 steps away. Considering the size of ground he has available , he hasnt moved more than 2-3 inches.

I know , I keep referring as him, thats only because i was told that the tortoise is male, dont mean to make him upset in case he is not ! So far the only nickname i could call him is sleepyhead!

Regards

Substrate is cypress mulch, small pebbles, flat rocks and some flat dishes.
Basking spot zoo med 75w - 115-120
Rest of habitat is between 75-80
UVB is a Repti glo -5.0 UVB, compact
night lamp is a zoo med nocturnal infrared heat lamp of 75w
His habitat is basically a cabinet drawer.
 

moswen

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take the compact uvb back to the store, they are really bad for your tort's eyes. if you can take the zoo med basking bulb back too and just get a mercury vapor bulb, 100-160w that will provide your full spectrum uva/uvb requirements and his heat source as well, and it will not cause eye problems. compact bulbs are bad!

two soaks a day will definately not hurt, i say go for it!

i'm very sorry to hear he is not moving, even with the bumped temps. this is usually not a good sign... sorry i forget, have you taken him to a vet?

at least you know he's eating because he pooped some carrots, i am at a loss with what to do here, i know someone else will come along with more info. i'm so sorry!
 

TedNY

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How is the fluroscent lamp 18" long fixture type for them ? not the compact ones but the longer ones.
I was planning one of those for the UVB light on its new place, mounted one of those on the back of its house, about 15" high and adjustable to higher or lower if using a 10.0 lamp, using a reptisun terrarium hood housing.
 

greeks

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I use the tube fluorescent bulbs. For Greeks you definitely want the 10.0. I use the Reptiglo currently but I believe the Reptisun are the best output you can buy. Look for them online if you want to save a bunch of $. They should be kept quite close because the UVB doesn't reach very far (8-10 inches). I forget the length but they are the 15 watt ones because I found a fixture rated for 15watts for $10.

If you're not trying to keep overall wattage down (I live in an old building where the fuses blow very easily), an MVB bulb is definitely the more convenient way to go and you can supplement with a heat emitter if you need to.

I didn't see if you had mentioned anywhere but is your tortoise's shell getting softer or harder or neither?
 
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Maggie Cummings

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You need to get rid of that bulb ASAP. They cause blindness and death and in my case they caused both. If you get rid of that bulb and just use a regular incandescent 100 watt bulb I'll bet he's fine in a few days. Those bulbs are awful. I haven't read the other posts after you said what bulb you had because I just wanted to type this right away. I imagine the others are telling you this about the bulb too. But those bulbs are serious bad news. Please stop using it right away.

Then you can buy the reptisun 10. and use that but while you are waiting for the new bulb an incandescent bulb will suffice...
 

TedNY

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I removed the compact and placed a mercury powersun 100, trying to keep the temps as noted before, I kept the basking spot in one corner. cold side of the habitat is about 71-75.

I started the warm soaks on the morning with vitasol and will give another one in the afternoon with the baby food mixed with rep cal vitamins and calcium.

On another note, this is how he has been since time i got him, i feel a soft shell on the corners and mid bottom section. So i will assume will have to crank up the calcium intake somehow at least in his soaks since he dont take too much food.

Have been able to handfeed him a couple of bites of greens every other day it seems, romaine and dandelion, but very few bites, nothing that will be counted as his daily should be food.

I havent taken him to the vet, will that be a good idea? I just feel sorry to subject him in needles or prodding of any kind. When he takes his food bites he appears alert, wide open eyes and pretty hectic but then looses interest pretty fast. Well , I am planning of calling tomorrow a local vet who specializes to reptiles and tortoises from what i read, will have to figure out a little box for him to keep him warm.

One more question ,
I have the mecury vapor powersun 100w , what should I have the temps be under that? also what distance? I am always worried about baking the poor guy and lack experience with lights.

All any other advise is welcome, thank you for the info
 

tortoisenerd

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Using an accurate thermometer like a temp gun, the hottest spot at the surface under the bulb should be about 95/100 F, and the coolest part of the enclosure should be around 75 F. The bulb should be 12 to 18 inches from the substrate to get the 95/100 F. If any closer, its dangerous UVB levels, and any further, and the tort doesn't get useful UVB. With typical room temps, you should have no problem getting 95 F between 12 and 18 inches. Make sure you have a hide near the basking spot (somewhere in the high 80s), a moderate temp hide, and a cooler one. Great choice on the Powersun!

Encourage the tort to be in the warm hide so it will want to bask and then eat (they need to get their tummy in the 80s to want to take more than a couple bites of food, because they can't digest food when cold). Some other enticing foods for your Greek may be canned pumpkin (not pie filling), radicchio or frisee lettuces (in some spring mixes, or by themselves), and cactus pads or fruit. Almost any food in moderation is ok in emergency situations to get a tort eating. The longer they go without eating, the harder it is to get them eating. That your tort would take a few bites hand fed is a good sign actually. They may want to eat more than that when warm and left alone.

Yes the shell should still have some give to it at his age. You just don't want it to get any softer, only harder as time goes on. I'm not too sure what the vet could do besides give liquid calcium by mouth, but of course a vet visit could be helpful (bring your tort's fecal sample to be tested for parasites). Don't let them give a vitamin A injection. If your tort completely wasn't eating that might warrant a feeding tube. I'm hoping with a bit of time and the soaks, the activity level will pick up and the tort will start eating a good amount. For the vet trip, a medium tupperware with a dish towel or two inside is good for transport. I warm up the car first so its really only a few steps in the cold for my tort to go from the car to the vet. If you think its going to be quite a bit of time in the cold, you can use a hand warmer pack under the towel the tort is on, as long as the tort has space to get off of it as well. A vet should have a heat lamp set up to put the tort under, but of course you can confirm by phone.

Good luck!
 

TedNY

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Update of so far:
I'll try to get him to the vet, the one i have close by seem to have odd hours unfortunately, was hoping that he'll poop so can collect a sample but nothing that i have noticed so far. He did seem a little better for a day, more active, even took some bites of greens , alert, then he reverted back to the same yesterday.

his bottom and sides are getting softer from what i see, is that possible within a couple of weeks?, his bottom middle seems to be very soft, lights are set with MVB, temps good, i sprinkle calcium on all the food and soakings, along with vitasol soakings but he rarely eats. I should have the flukes liquid calcium today and will add that as well on some.

I expanded the flat surfaces in his habitat, not sure if its a good idea, but with his bottom being soft thought it might be easier for him.

Anyway, will see what the vet says but I have a feeling that this little guy has given up despite all. I am very upset in seeing a creature mishandled and shipped to me for profit, wish I had found this forum before to seek a better seller/breeder....
 

Yvonne G

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Hi Ted:

We've thrown a lot of info at you and I give you credit for trying to act on all of it.

The main thing is your baby is soft. So you need to get calcium into him and either real sunshine or UVB from a good light to make the calcium work.

Egyptian Dan told you to soak in Vita-sol water with liquid calcium added. The vet won't do any different than that except maybe give a calcium injection. But he's so small, I'm not sure he'd be willing to do that.

Good luck with this baby. I truly hope you can turn him around.
 

lincoln3313

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Also, you may not have to wait for a stool sample to take with, if you are having a hard time getting one. My vet manipulates the bottom of his shell with a little pressure, and gets a urine and fecal sample immediately. I was stunned, as I did not expect that to be a possibility. You may want to call and ask if your vet can get a stool sample manually.
 

greeks

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Your little one does look and sound like what my little failed hatchling was like. All you can do is try your best with the methods we've suggested and hope for success. If irreversible damage has been done (softening shell, from what I've read, is sometimes a sign kidney damage in babies whereby they start to reabsorb the calcium in their shells) there's no real fix; but if the damage is not permanent, it's definitely possible to nurse your little guy back to optimum health. Keep babies hydrated!! :D
 
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