Greek Tortoise is being inactive.

vol0dymyr

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Hi, Im a beginner tortoise owner, just got my beloved Greek Tortoise(I believe he`s an TG Ibera, although he hasnt developed a moving back part of a plastron yet). He turned 2 y.o. a month ago and it`s been a week since I got him. Breeder told me that this little guy is from Macedonia, but I cant find that info on his CITES. He used to live in an outdoor enclosure with other tortoises, one of those was his brother and other 3 were Marginated tortoises, and he did brumate his 2 winters. He is now living inside in a tortoise table which is 5ft by 1.6ft(150cm*50cm*20cm), fisrtly, I`ve made a quartz sand substrate for him, in which he was moderately active, but I`ve noticed signs of dehydration - urates(toothpaste consistency, but with every poo) and a peeling skin behind he`s back legs, he never went for a drink, even tho he had a fresh water dish all the time, and I`ve bathed him once in 2 days. It was hard to maintain humidity levels above 35% with a quartz sand.
So I bought him a coconut coir, and at first he seemed to really like it, for 2 days he was active for 7-9 hours, gladly went out of his safe space aka closed and colder part of a table with a hay shelter, ate enough, went to a sun spot etc. But last day he didn`t get out as usual, spent almost the whole day inside of a shelter, barely touched his food, and didn`t defecate. For the fisrt time he burrowed in a coir for a night, now he did it again. He started biting his basking shellfish after the substarate change, too. I thought he might lack Calcium at first, but he tried to bite his water plate as well, so I`m confused about that, Urates do seem healthy enough, is he just trimming his beak this way?
He has a sun basking area with UVB and UVA lamp, that gets the spot to a constant 32C(Repti-Zoo SuperSun 160W), cold spot doesn`t drop below 25C for now, humidity with coconut coir was 65% at first, now it dropped to ~50%, fresh water dish is always there, he has hills to climb, Nephrolepis to hide behind and munch from time to time.
I do feed him once a day, portion is sized just enough to cover his shell.
His diet is dandellion leafs, rocket salad(Eruca vesicaria), occasional cucumber(breeder use to give him cucumbers regularly so he enjoys them), green leaf lettuce, occasional bulgarian pepper(he ate it two times, both times destroying every cm of it), clever, rarely an non sweet apple(once), occasional green squash, and once I gave him aloe, but he only had a bite and ignored it for 2 days. He did grab a few bites of rocket salad last day, but thats it.
He has no signs of RI or other health issues, always up on his legs while walking, he do be extending his neck and even gets on his back legs to get to Nephrolepsis leaves, the main disturbing thing is that some coconut coir does get on his food, not to make food unedible, but enough for him to eat it. Im not sure if he has problems metabolising it, can it cause any other health problems etc?
 

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wellington

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Couple things. Never use sand, can cause impactions and eye problems.
The enclosure is way too small, specially for an older one that came from living outside
Get humidity up to 50-80% and soak at least every other day.
Also be sure the temps are correct. A range of 75-80 during the day with a basking area that reaches 95-100. Night temps can be low 70's.
Then give him some time to settle in. He came from being outside in likely a bigger better enclosure with other tortoises he didn't want to really be around.
He needs to get adjusted to his new life and that he is safe and the king of his own castle
I'm the mean time make improvements needed.
 

vol0dymyr

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Couple things. Never use sand, can cause impactions and eye problems.
The enclosure is way too small, specially for an older one that came from living outside
Get humidity up to 50-80% and soak at least every other day.
Also be sure the temps are correct. A range of 75-80 during the day with a basking area that reaches 95-100. Night temps can be low 70's.
Then give him some time to settle in. He came from being outside in likely a bigger better enclosure with other tortoises he didn't want to really be around.
He needs to get adjusted to his new life and that he is safe and the king of his own castle
I'm the mean time make improvements needed.
Thanks, Temps are all accurate 100% and they do correlate to your Fahrenheit ones, except it just doesn`t get that cold at night here yet, it doesnt drop below 77F.
Eye problems concerns was one of the issues that leadd to substrate change(his eyes are fine), but still, what can you tell about possible reactions of him eating small pieces of coconut coit? Does it affect him?
 

wellington

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Thanks, Temps are all accurate 100% and they do correlate to your Fahrenheit ones, except it just doesn`t get that cold at night here yet, it doesnt drop below 77F.
Eye problems concerns was one of the issues that leadd to substrate change(his eyes are fine), but still, what can you tell about possible reactions of him eating small pieces of coconut coit? Does it affect him?
You don't want them to eat their substrate but coconut coir will not harm them if eaten. But, try to keep it from being eaten. Keep food on flat rocks or plates. Clean up any food that does get on the substrate.
 

Littleredfootbigredheart

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Hello and welcome!🐢💚

There are a few things of note, as wellington says enclosure size does need upgrading, and the lamp type you’re using isn’t the most ideal choice.

This thread is titled for Herman’s and Russians but care is quite similar, I cover correct equipment, levels, maintaining humidity(if you’re struggling you can try covering it with a greenhouse style topper), there’s lots of visual examples for things and a good diet link to check out🙂

This one is also good to familiarise with, will help you avoid the wrong bulbs, substrates, housing etc😊

Hope they help!
 

vol0dymyr

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Hello and welcome!🐢💚

There are a few things of note, as wellington says enclosure size does need upgrading, and the lamp type you’re using isn’t the most ideal choice.

This thread is titled for Herman’s and Russians but care is quite similar, I cover correct equipment, levels, maintaining humidity(if you’re struggling you can try covering it with a greenhouse style topper), there’s lots of visual examples for things and a good diet link to check out🙂

This one is also good to familiarise with, will help you avoid the wrong bulbs, substrates, housing etc😊

Hope they help!
Thanks guys, appreciated. The problem is solved tho. Turns out he had a constipation because of Nehprolepsis leaves, I bathed him, he had a poo, ate and started behaving normally. Due to the fact he ate quite a lot of those, I expect him to get rid of them all in 4-5 days of everyday baths.
About the lamp - sadly, it's the best option available here in Ukraine right now, IDK what to do about it.
Thanks for the linked topics, although I can't agree that Greeks would appreciate care similar to Russian because TG Ibera do live in way more humid environment (by tortoise measures) than a Testudo Horsefieldi.
I will improve his diet tho.
 

The_Four_Toed_Edward

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Thanks guys, appreciated. The problem is solved tho. Turns out he had a constipation because of Nehprolepsis leaves, I bathed him, he had a poo, ate and started behaving normally. Due to the fact he ate quite a lot of those, I expect him to get rid of them all in 4-5 days of everyday baths.
About the lamp - sadly, it's the best option available here in Ukraine right now, IDK what to do about it.
Thanks for the linked topics, although I can't agree that Greeks would appreciate care similar to Russian because TG Ibera do live in way more humid environment (by tortoise measures) than a Testudo Horsefieldi.
I will improve his diet tho.
Glad to hear he is eating. Can you find a household incandescent flood bulb for basking?
 

vol0dymyr

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Surely, although as I mentioned temps are fine, humidity as well. Did my research on Mercury Vapor bulbs and didn't come across troubles you've mentioned. Before getting my tort I've read every caresheet available and some even recommended those as their top pick, so this got me kinda confused. I was aware of unhealthy and troubling lamps so naturally avoided those. Didn't notice any signs of my torts eyes being hurt or anything. Maybe there are specific clues I gotta look for?
Glad to hear he is eating. Can you find a household incandescent flood bulb for basking?
 

The_Four_Toed_Edward

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Surely, although as I mentioned temps are fine, humidity as well. Did my research on Mercury Vapor bulbs and didn't come across troubles you've mentioned. Before getting my tort I've read every caresheet available and some even recommended those as their top pick, so this got me kinda confused. I was aware of unhealthy and troubling lamps so naturally avoided those. Didn't notice any signs of my torts eyes being hurt or anything. Maybe there are specific clues I gotta look for?
Some mercury bulbs are fine, just short lasting. The symptoms caused by a UVB hotspot would be swollen or watery eyes and hiding from the lamp. Sometimes tortoises will rub their eyes too. Maybe @Alex and the Redfoot can tell more.
 

Littleredfootbigredheart

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Some mercury bulbs are fine, just short lasting. The symptoms caused by a UVB hotspot would be swollen or watery eyes and hiding from the lamp. Sometimes tortoises will rub their eyes too. Maybe @Alex and the Redfoot can tell more.
Yeah mvbs aren’t as bad a coil bulbs for example from my understanding.
I do think there’s a few reasons why they aren’t the most practical choice, some of the reasons could potentially have cons in terms of their needs. They can be known for either giving out too much uv into a concentrated area, or not giving enough over a large space, the fact the heat and the uv are combined can sometimes make it tricky to get the basking spot accurate along with the uvi zone below, even when achieved, with that bulb being on 12hours a day every day, the uv output will diminish much faster, but lowering it to account for this could then cause your basking temp to be too high, getting rid of a bulb still producing heat seems a waste, but would be necessary if that’s what you’re relying on for uv. Another thing is not being able to separate the timing of the uv and basking, whilst 12hours of uv in the enclosure won’t necessarily cause harm, it’s not entirely natural for them. Also because the mbv bulbs aren’t frosted like the floodlights, some say they can be too harsh like spot lights.

So yeah not necessarily the most damaging or harmful by any means, but a floodlight for basking and a t5 fluorescent bulb that can disperse the uv light better is a more optimal choice, at least imo🙂

I always like to hear what Alex thinks😊
 

Alex and the Redfoot

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Hi!
You didn't mention the distance between MVB lamp and tortoise, so I'll make a guess basing on numbers from lamp packaging: 32C under the lamp is achieved at a distance of 60-70 cm. This very approximately gives us UV index 3-4: on the box only mW/cm2 is specified, using "average" coefficient for MVB lamps (12-15) we can translate it to UV Index by dividing value in mW/cm2 by this "magic number".

Recommended basking area temperature is 36-37C. If you lower the MVB lamp to 45cm to achieve this temperature, UV Index will raise to unsafe values 7-10. Also, basking area will become much smaller. You can work around this situation by adding an incandescent basking lamp, however this will increase IR-A (infrared band A) considerably (a sum of MVB IR-A output which is pretty high + IR-A from incandescent lamp).

Part of IR-A band is absorbed by water molecules which results in excessive heating and desiccation of new growth zones and eventually in pyramiding. Some illustrations can be found in this article: https://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/baskinghealth.html co-authored by Frances Baines. Also, in her older posts on this forum (user "lilacdragon"). As you see, articles are rather old but I haven't seen newer papers on this topic (would be happy to read some).
 

The_Four_Toed_Edward

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<
Hi!
You didn't mention the distance between MVB lamp and tortoise, so I'll make a guess basing on numbers from lamp packaging: 32C under the lamp is achieved at a distance of 60-70 cm. This very approximately gives us UV index 3-4: on the box only mW/cm2 is specified, using "average" coefficient for MVB lamps (12-15) we can translate it to UV Index by dividing value in mW/cm2 by this "magic number".

Recommended basking area temperature is 36-37C. If you lower the MVB lamp to 45cm to achieve this temperature, UV Index will raise to unsafe values 7-10. Also, basking area will become much smaller. You can work around this situation by adding an incandescent basking lamp, however this will increase IR-A (infrared band A) considerably (a sum of MVB IR-A output which is pretty high + IR-A from incandescent lamp).

Part of IR-A band is absorbed by water molecules which results in excessive heating and desiccation of new growth zones and eventually in pyramiding. Some illustrations can be found in this article: https://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/baskinghealth.html co-authored by Frances Baines. Also, in her older posts on this forum (user "lilacdragon"). As you see, articles are rather old but I haven't seen newer papers on this topic (would be happy to read some).
Curious, what if the MVB was on a 4 hour timer and the incandescent on a 12 hour one?
 

Alex and the Redfoot

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Curious, what if the MVB was on a 4 hour timer and the incandescent on a 12 hour one?
Doable, if you can keep basking area temperature under control. Excessive IR-A is still an issue, perhaps. And I would get a Solarmeter, MVB are told to be less predictable in terms of lifespan than T5 tubes.
 

vol0dymyr

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Hi!
You didn't mention the distance between MVB lamp and tortoise, so I'll make a guess basing on numbers from lamp packaging: 32C under the lamp is achieved at a distance of 60-70 cm. This very approximately gives us UV index 3-4: on the box only mW/cm2 is specified, using "average" coefficient for MVB lamps (12-15) we can translate it to UV Index by dividing value in mW/cm2 by this "magic number".

Recommended basking area temperature is 36-37C. If you lower the MVB lamp to 45cm to achieve this temperature, UV Index will raise to unsafe values 7-10. Also, basking area will become much smaller. You can work around this situation by adding an incandescent basking lamp, however this will increase IR-A (infrared band A) considerably (a sum of MVB IR-A output which is pretty high + IR-A from incandescent lamp).

Part of IR-A band is absorbed by water molecules which results in excessive heating and desiccation of new growth zones and eventually in pyramiding. Some illustrations can be found in this article: https://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/baskinghealth.html co-authored by Frances Baines. Also, in her older posts on this forum (user "lilacdragon"). As you see, articles are rather old but I haven't seen newer papers on this topic (would be happy to read some).
Thanks for the advices, the lamp manufacturer is a liar tho, it gets a basking spot to 32C from a 42Cm distance so I guess that is not good and I'll fix that asap. Although maybe there's a small chance that after providing a buyer with wrong Temp to Distance ratio, manufacturer lied about UV ratios too, whoever knows in which way.
Will switch to T5 tubes + incandescent light for a basking spot as well.
 

Alex and the Redfoot

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Thanks for the advices, the lamp manufacturer is a liar tho, it gets a basking spot to 32C from a 42Cm distance so I guess that is not good and I'll fix that asap. Although maybe there's a small chance that after providing a buyer with wrong Temp to Distance ratio, manufacturer lied about UV ratios too, whoever knows in which way.
Will switch to T5 tubes + incandescent light for a basking spot as well.
Just in case, try to avoid ReptiZoo and similar chinese brands for UVB lights if possible. I hope you can find either Arcadia ProT5 Desert 12%, ZooMed Reptisun T5 10.0 or Reptile Systems Fergusson Zone 3. Approximate mounting height for these lamps is 45-55 cm.
 

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