Greek tortoise swollen eyelids

[magdalenazbinden]

Hello everyone
I would like to ask for some input.
My greek tortois is about 20 years old. For most of his life he lived in a terrarium, not properly set up. He came to me last year and while he was waiting for his outdoor enclosure, he still lived in the terrarium but was eating well and was very active. About a month ago he stopped eating and his eyelids became swollen. He only wanted to sleep and no food would encourage him to out of his 'cave'. The vet gave him antibiotic for a possible infection,checked his feces (results came clean) and gave him electrolites. It didnt help. I thought that moving to his new outdoor enclosure would help. And for two days he was super happy there, ate and walked around. Thats also when I noticed that he doesnt like to be in the sun and is rubbing his eyes with front legs when exposed to it. After that he went to his tunnel and sleeps there the whole day and doesnt eat. The vet who is looking after reptiles gave us the vitamin a injections for him and a gel with antibiotic for his eyelids. The dose is half of maximum allowed dosage. We started today. But im really scared because I read so much about different (positive and negative) effects the vitamine a can cause. Im really worried and wanted to ask those of you who have been through sth similiar if it looks like a case when vitamin a needs to be injected. Thank you in advance!

 

[theodorejr]

could you perhaps post some pictures? so members can give you the right advice and know whats up thank you!

 

[magdalenazbinden]

Hello this is from the beginning of the spring this year. The swelling was already visible. Now its bigger. I will take new pictures tomorrow because he is now sleeping. Btw. His name is Franklin

 

[Chubbs the tegu]

Could be many causes. Very dry conditions, eye infection, wrong substrate, wrong lighting, vitamin A deficiency ( rare in torts). Some more info about how he was being kept before he went outdoors will help to maybe figure it out.

 

[magdalenazbinden]

Could be many causes. Very dry conditions, eye infection, wrong substrate, wrong lighting, vitamin A deficiency ( rare in torts). Some more info about how he was being kept before he went outdoors will help to maybe figure it out.

Of course:
Terrarium: 60x50x40cm with sand and top soil and coconut fiber/soil. No uvb lamp just one to keep him warm (temperature under the lamp was about 30 degrees)
Food: he was given all what he liked. So banana, lettuce, spinat, eggs. He never liked carrots or pumpkin so never had them.
For all these years he was (suprisingly in these conditions) active and ate well.

 

[Chubbs the tegu]

Of course:
Terrarium: 60x50x40cm with sand and top soil and coconut fiber/soil. No uvb lamp just one to keep him warm (temperature under the lamp was about 30 degrees)
Food: he was given all what he liked. So banana, lettuce, spinat, eggs. He never liked carrots or pumpkin so never had them.
For all these years he was (suprisingly in these conditions) active and ate well.

the substrate could be the cause of the eye irritation. Is he living outdoors full time now? Have u changed his diet? I would give him 30 min - an hr soaks daily in warm water as well as flush his eyes with water daily. Ill give u a link to a great care guide to help u out. Come back with any questions. Good luck!
Thread 'The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise'
https://www.tortoiseforum.org/threa...ise-any-temperate-species-of-tortoise.183131/

 

[magdalenazbinden]

the substrate could be the cause of the eye irritation. Is he living outdoors full time now? Have u changed his diet? I would give him 30 min - an hr soaks daily in warm water as well as flush his eyes with water daily. Ill give u a link to a great care guide to help u out. Come back with any questions. Good luck!
Thread 'The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise'
https://www.tortoiseforum.org/threa...ise-any-temperate-species-of-tortoise.183131/

Thank you.
His last substrate in terrarium was special soil for tortoises. Lets say for the last half a year. I stopped giving him banana and lettuce the moment he came to me. He had banana twice since then and only to check if he is ok. He loved it so much i used it twice as a test if he is still eating. Thats actually how i noticed that sth is off. I tried giving him everything that he is supposed to eat, no success. He was outside for a week but never came out of his house. He was always sleeping hiding and sleeping apart from those first two times when he was there and he walked a bit and ate some leaves. Today i moved him back to terrarium because i put the gel on his eyelids and didnt want him to get some dirt on it while being outside (his new enclosure is waaaay bigger than terrarium). I will do anything to help him but im not sure that the injections we started giving him are the right way to go.
Thank you for the link

 

[Tom]

Thank you.
His last substrate in terrarium was special soil for tortoises. Lets say for the last half a year. I stopped giving him banana and lettuce the moment he came to me. He had banana twice since then and only to check if he is ok. He loved it so much i used it twice as a test if he is still eating. Thats actually how i noticed that sth is off. I tried giving him everything that he is supposed to eat, no success. He was outside for a week but never came out of his house. He was always sleeping hiding and sleeping apart from those first two times when he was there and he walked a bit and ate some leaves. Today i moved him back to terrarium because i put the gel on his eyelids and didnt want him to get some dirt on it while being outside (his new enclosure is waaaay bigger than terrarium). I will do anything to help him but im not sure that the injections we started giving him are the right way to go.
Thank you for the link

The special soil for tortoises is probably the usual wrong stuff that pet stores sell. Sand and soil? Little limestone bits in it?

In your northern climate they must have UV lamps in doors. Has he never had that? Even in mid summer, your mid day UV levels are comparatively low compared to where they come from.

In addition to the link from Chubbs, check this one out too:

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[magdalenazbinden]

could you perhaps post some pictures? so members can give you the right advice and know whats up thank you!

Hey hey
Two pictures from this morning

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Do you hibernate your tortoise? If so, did this problem present it self after hibernation?

Does your tortoise have a water dish? Do you soak him and if so, how often? What is his humidity like? What lights do you use? Harsh lighting and dryness can hinder the eyes from healing, or even cause the puffiness in the first place.

I don't see anyone mentioning this, but how many toes does your tortoise have? If he has 4 toes in each feet, he is probably a Russian. That shell pattern and coloring looks Russian to me. Either way, Russians and Greeks have the same care.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Hello!
He indeed might have vitamin A deficiency. As mentioned above - it's very rare in tortoises because they get plenty of vitamin A from their diet.

Important considerations on his diet:
1. Do not feed animal protein (eggs, meat, cat foods and so on). If he catch a snail or an earthworm in the garden - it's okay. But no protein in his regular diet.
2. No mushrooms.
3. No fruit. Sugary foods can and often cause digestion problems as this tortoises species isn't adapted to process lot of sugars. A piece of zuccini can be a good treat too
4. He needs a good diet of leafy greens. Lettuce is not very nutritious so add ruccola (rocket), endive, chickory, radicchio, kale, collard and turnip greens and other greens. I bet, you can find a lot of edible weeds in your garden - pansies, broadleaf plantain, dandelions and such (check thetortoisetable.org.uk for a list of edible plants).

If it's really a vitamin A deficiency, then you can try "carrot soaks". Get a can of baby carrot food (yes, for human babies) and mix it with warm water 1:1, use this for soaking him for 30-60 minutes. As water should stay warm all the time - soaking tub can be put in his enclosure close to basking lamp (not under it).

Can you also post what lamp do you use? A photo of the label or packaging would be great.

 

[magdalenazbinden]

Hello!
He indeed might have vitamin A deficiency. As mentioned above - it's very rare in tortoises because they get plenty of vitamin A from their diet.

Important considerations on his diet:
1. Do not feed animal protein (eggs, meat, cat foods and so on). If he catch a snail or an earthworm in the garden - it's okay. But no protein in his regular diet.
2. No mushrooms.
3. No fruit. Sugary foods can and often cause digestion problems as this tortoises species isn't adapted to process lot of sugars. A piece of zuccini can be a good treat too
4. He needs a good diet of leafy greens. Lettuce is not very nutritious so add ruccola (rocket), endive, chickory, radicchio, kale, collard and turnip greens and other greens. I bet, you can find a lot of edible weeds in your garden - pansies, broadleaf plantain, dandelions and such (check thetortoisetable.org.uk for a list of edible plants).

If it's really a vitamin A deficiency, then you can try "carrot soaks". Get a can of baby carrot food (yes, for human babies) and mix it with warm water 1:1, use this for soaking him for 30-60 minutes. As water should stay warm all the time - soaking tub can be put in his enclosure close to basking lamp (not under it).

Can you also post what lamp do you use? A photo of the label or packaging would be great.

hello thanks a lot for the input
The problem is that he doesnt want to eat. Within the last month he only had a few leaves he ate in the garden. I attached the lamp we have BUT its not yet installed. The vet and an advisor in a pet store said he must go outside and live outside as soon as possible. That is why we built him the enclosure. During the time he was supposed to spend outside, we planned to buy him a new terrarium and use this lamp. I brought him back to terrarium only for the time when he is getting medications. The indoor terrarium is still work in progress so he is in the old one for a few days. Do maybe know if those vitamin a injections can make it way worse and cause swellings and all those other things I read on the internet?

 

[magdalenazbinden]

Hello!
He indeed might have vitamin A deficiency. As mentioned above - it's very rare in tortoises because they get plenty of vitamin A from their diet.

Important considerations on his diet:
1. Do not feed animal protein (eggs, meat, cat foods and so on). If he catch a snail or an earthworm in the garden - it's okay. But no protein in his regular diet.
2. No mushrooms.
3. No fruit. Sugary foods can and often cause digestion problems as this tortoises species isn't adapted to process lot of sugars. A piece of zuccini can be a good treat too
4. He needs a good diet of leafy greens. Lettuce is not very nutritious so add ruccola (rocket), endive, chickory, radicchio, kale, collard and turnip greens and other greens. I bet, you can find a lot of edible weeds in your garden - pansies, broadleaf plantain, dandelions and such (check thetortoisetable.org.uk for a list of edible plants).

If it's really a vitamin A deficiency, then you can try "carrot soaks". Get a can of baby carrot food (yes, for human babies) and mix it with warm water 1:1, use this for soaking him for 30-60 minutes. As water should stay warm all the time - soaking tub can be put in his enclosure close to basking lamp (not under it).

Can you also post what lamp do you use? A photo of the label or packaging would be great.

Do you hibernate your tortoise? If so, did this problem present it self after hibernation?

Does your tortoise have a water dish? Do you soak him and if so, how often? What is his humidity like? What lights do you use? Harsh lighting and dryness can hinder the eyes from healing, or even cause the puffiness in the first place.

I don't see anyone mentioning this, but how many toes does your tortoise have? If he has 4 toes in each feet, he is probably a Russian. That shell pattern and coloring looks Russian to me. Either way, Russians and Greeks have the same care.

Hello
No, he doesnt hibernate and never did. He came to me last year only and it wasnt enough time to prepare everything for him / him to hibernate.
Yes he does have water indoor and outdoor. I used to soak him once a week but now once a day. The humidity indoor is about 60% outside im not sure. Outside he gets the natural light, inside he gest the sun too but the lamp is not uvb. We are waiting for the new terrarium to install the new lamp.
Franklin has 4 toes. thanks for asking. the other vet (not our current one) said he is definitely greek but now that you mentioned it, it makes no sense what he said.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

hello thanks a lot for the input
The problem is that he doesnt want to eat. Within the last month he only had a few leaves he ate in the garden. I attached the lamp we have BUT its not yet installed. The vet and an advisor in a pet store said he must go outside and live outside as soon as possible. That is why we built him the enclosure. During the time he was supposed to spend outside, we planned to buy him a new terrarium and use this lamp. I brought him back to terrarium only for the time when he is getting medications. The indoor terrarium is still work in progress so he is in the old one for a few days. Do maybe know if those vitamin a injections can make it way worse and cause swellings and all those other things I read on the internet?

Vitamin A injections can lead to vitamin overdose. And this can result in swellling, extensive skin shedding and so on. Carrot soaks, I mentioned help with vitamin A deficiency too but risk of overdosing is minimal. Right after the soak put your tortoise next to the food dish, soaks give a small appetite boost.

An important factor in overall activity and appetite are temperatures. Tortoise needs a way to warm up to 38-39C under the sun or basking lamp for proper digestion and stay active. And of course it needs a shade to cool down.

The lamp you are planning to use may be very tricky to set up right:
1. They often overheat smaller enclosures
2. You need to balance between basking zone size and temperature and UVB output - when you move the lamp up and down all three variables change. With some of such "all-in-one" lamps you can't find the right combination.
3. You can't have UVB and heat on separate timers.
Also these lamps can be desiccating to tortoise shells and expensive in the long-run (average lifespan 3-6 months).

P.S. - Franklin is a Russian tortoise, Testudo horsfieldii

 

[magdalenazbinden]

Vitamin A injections can lead to vitamin overdose. And this can result in swellling, extensive skin shedding and so on. Carrot soaks, I mentioned help with vitamin A deficiency too but risk of overdosing is minimal. Right after the soak put your tortoise next to the food dish, soaks give a small appetite boost.

An important factor in overall activity and appetite are temperatures. Tortoise needs a way to warm up to 38-39C under the sun or basking lamp for proper digestion and stay active. And of course it needs a shade to cool down.

The lamp you are planning to use may be very tricky to set up right:
1. They often overheat smaller enclosures
2. You need to balance between basking zone size and temperature and UVB output - when you move the lamp up and down all three variables change. With some of such "all-in-one" lamps you can't find the right combination.
3. You can't have UVB and heat on separate timers.
Also these lamps can be desiccating to tortoise shells and expensive in the long-run (average lifespan 3-6 months).

P.S. - Franklin is a Russian tortoise, Testudo horsfieldii

Thank you very much. I will try those carrot baths
I will buy him a new indoor enclosure this week. Im thinking about the open one. Is there a terrarium and a lamp brand you could recommend?
And a tricky question: should i then not continue with the vitamin a injections?

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Hello and welcome! He does appear Russian to me! So with that in mind I’m going to include a bunch of info below that covers everything set up wise, you may already know some of it or have some of the right equipment, but hopefully you can apply information where changes are needed to your set up. I included absolutely everything for any new members that may come across the threads

As adults they need a minimum of an 8x4 enclosure, roaming is vital to tortoise health, it aids digestion and strengthen their muscles. If they spend the majority of the year indoors due to your climate, they’ll need closet to that size you can get indoors.

I’m going to include some information below on an example of an appropriate indoor set up, it includes the correct levels and equipment etc, including the appropriate indoor uv

Basking light should be an incandescent floodlight(example attached) on a 12 hour timer.

Basking temperature directly under the floodlight should be 95-100f. The rest of the enclosure should be ranging 75-80 during the day.

You may also wish to add ambient lighting on the same timer, providing shady areas with hides and safe plants.

Then CHE/CHE’s(ceramic heat emitters) always on a thermostat, for night heat if your house drops below 60’s at night. Set the thermostat for a night temperature place the probe in their cooler end, plug the che into it and the thermostat into the mains, it’ll be plugged in 24/7 but will only turn on when the temperature drops. If you’re in a cold climate, you’ll most likely need these but feel free to double check your night temps first, if it stays around 65 you’re good.

Indoor Uv should be a t5 fluorescent tube, avoid the compact and coil uv bulbs, they don’t give out enough uv and can hurt the tortoises eyes(could possibly be the case here). The uv can be on a 4 hour timer from noon. I’ve attached examples of the two brands to go for and some examples of how to mount them. The Arcadia comes with the reflector fitting but you’ll need to buy it separately with the reptisun

With lighting always avoid anything labelled halogen or mercury vapour.

For substrates, either coco coir, dampened and packed down by hand as a base, with a layer of orchid(fir not pine) bark or forest floor on top, or just the orchid bark/forest floor. Never use anything with sand mixed in, no top soils and no kinds of moss. The problem with top soil is unless you’ve composted it yourself, you don’t know what kind of plants have gone into it, it could be something toxic. Sand can irritate the eyes and be an impaction risk, moss is an impaction risk too. If that is sand you are using, it needs replacing asap.

You want to aim to have the bottom layer of substrate damp, to do this pour lukewarm water into the corners, not loads but enough to dampen the entire bottom layer. To stop that top layer getting a little too dry/dusty, mix the substrate now n then. Check your monitors and substrate to do the pours as and when needed.

I’d personally recommend you make your own base to go as big as you possibly can for the space you have. The closer you can get to an 8x4 size the better.

When making your base, just make sure the material is safe, some use flower beds, or take a large bookcase, take out the shelves and lie flat, or just make their own, for all these options I’d line with cheap pond liner to protect the base, making sure the liner goes up the sides too and make sure those sides are deep enough! They can be professional escape artists

I’ve also included examples of stands people make/buy to hang their lighting, use a temperature gun to determine how high the basking bulb needs to be, the uv I suggested needs to be mounted 18-20 inches from the substrate(Arcadia, double check reptisun)

For a water dish a shallow terracotta saucer is considered safest, they have grip in the event your tortoise flips themselves, most pet store options are a known hazard.

I’d also always recommend getting your hands on a temp gun, they’re SO handy when setting up a new environment or for checking your monitors are correct

Some of the examples are small but hopefully they give you an idea

For the diet side of things you may find this link below useful, leafy greens and weeds are the way to go with these guys, perhaps you could buy seeds online and grow them in organic soil(no fertilisers or chemicals) in a planter the tortoise doesn’t have access, forage as they grow

The Tortoise Table - Home

The Tortoise Table plant database and resource site for Tortoise owners

www.thetortoisetable.org.uk

Hope some of this helps!

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Thank you very much. I will try those carrot baths
I will buy him a new indoor enclosure this week. Im thinking about the open one. Is there a terrarium and a lamp brand you could recommend?
And a tricky question: should i then not continue with the vitamin an injections?

I wouldn’t continue with vitamin injections no hopefully my other reply helps on the recommendation side of things

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Thank you very much. I will try those carrot baths
I will buy him a new indoor enclosure this week. Im thinking about the open one. Is there a terrarium and a lamp brand you could recommend?
And a tricky question: should i then not continue with the vitamin a injections?

Usually, you can't get a good terrarium in the pet shop for sane amount of money. Ideally, you need a lot of space - single or 1.5 sized bed. To make such enclosures keepers often use bookcases from IKEA, raised garden beds and other similar ideas. When room space is tight, enclosure can be made two-tiered or L-shaped. Open top enclosure is fine.

Just above is a long post with all the examples and recommended lamps and their types - hard to add more.

I wouldn't do more injections. Carrot baths should be enough (keep doing them for a week at least). Focus on temperatures, hydration, exercise and diet.

 

[magdalenazbinden]

I wouldn’t continue with vitamin injections no hopefully my other reply helps on the recommendation side of things

Thanks a lot! Its very helpful.
I will then talk to our vet one more time about those injections and see what he says.
Thanks

 

[magdalenazbinden]

Usually, you can't get a good terrarium in the pet shop for sane amount of money. Ideally, you need a lot of space - single or 1.5 sized bed. To make such enclosures keepers often use bookcases from IKEA, raised garden beds and other similar ideas. When room space is tight, enclosure can be made two-tiered or L-shaped. Open top enclosure is fine.

Just above is a long post with all the examples and recommended lamps and their types - hard to add more.

I wouldn't do more injections. Carrot baths should be enough (keep doing them for a week at least). Focus on temperatures, hydration, exercise and diet.

Thank you very much