Grocery store diet for russian tortoise

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Hey! I got a russian tortoise two months ago, and as far as I know he has never been brumated. Because of our climate he has had to rely on a grocery store diet from late October to May. I got him in February and through my research noticed that none of the foods at the grocery store are that good for tortoises to be eating for most of the year. Also it is hard to grow food high in nutritional value in the darkest months (October to March).

What would you suggest to make his grocery store diet better? What plants should I try to grow for him? I take any suggestions to better his diet. I have tried to add some fiber with soaked hay pellets every time I feed him and added some calcium few times a week. I have also fed him some foods that some people recommend not giving at all, but they have been in low quantity. Overall I have striven for versatility, since none of these foods are that great. This is the selection I have been feeding to him:

• Plants low in nutritional value: (cucumber, zucchini, eggplant, squash, pumpkin)
• Different types of lettuces, also low in nutritional value: (iceberg lettuce, endive and romaine lettuce)
• Fruits and vegetables with high sugar content: (bell pepper, fennel, carrot, apple and banana and turnip)
• Types of cabbage: (Broccoli, cauli flower, asparagus, tenderstem broccoli, rucola, cabbage, napa cabbage, brussels sprout, leaf cabbage, red cabbage and bok choi)
• Fresh herbs: (Basilica, coriander, dill, mint, thyme, salvia, lemon balm, rosemary, oregano, tarragon, lovage and lemongrass)
• Occasionally some other vegetables like spinach, celery, sorrel, globe artichoke and radish. Depending on the grocery store selection.
  
  
  

 

[_The_Beast_]

Welcome to the forum

I'm stuck with grocery greens through the winter and got one of those countertop gardens to start growing healthier stuff throughout that season. It's going great so far! Some of the foods you've mentioned are safe for russians and some of them are not (spinach, for example, is really not ok because it can prevent calcium absorption, so that should not be fed). Russians are not a fruit eating tortoise species and cannot digest them properly, so removing the fruit is an easy starting place. Endive, arugula, escarole, kale, dandelion, and other dark leafy nutrient rich greens are a good grocery store starting place, though finding access to safe weeds is best long term.

Weeds:
There are soooooooo many...
Dandelion
Mallow
Filaree
Smooth Sow thistle
Prickly Sow thistle
Milk thistle
Goat head weed
Cats ear
Nettles
Trefoil
Wild onion
Wild mustard
Wild Garlic
Clovers
Broadleaf plantain
Narrow leaf plantain
Chick weed
Hawksbit
Hensbit
Hawksbeard

Here's a link to a post that has lots of incredible info on how to care for a russian tortoise: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/the-best-way-to-raise-any-temperate-species-of-tortoise.183131/

You can also use The Tortoise Table plant databse to help check plants: https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/

 

[Tom]

Hey! I got a russian tortoise two months ago, and as far as I know he has never been brumated. Because of our climate he has had to rely on a grocery store diet from late October to May. I got him in February and through my research noticed that none of the foods at the grocery store are that good for tortoises to be eating for most of the year. Also it is hard to grow food high in nutritional value in the darkest months (October to March).

What would you suggest to make his grocery store diet better? What plants should I try to grow for him? I take any suggestions to better his diet. I have tried to add some fiber with soaked hay pellets every time I feed him and added some calcium few times a week. I have also fed him some foods that some people recommend not giving at all, but they have been in low quantity. Overall I have striven for versatility, since none of these foods are that great. This is the selection I have been feeding to him:

• Plants low in nutritional value: (cucumber, zucchini, eggplant, squash, pumpkin)
• Different types of lettuces, also low in nutritional value: (iceberg lettuce, endive and romaine lettuce)
• Fruits and vegetables with high sugar content: (bell pepper, fennel, carrot, apple and banana and turnip)
• Types of cabbage: (Broccoli, cauli flower, asparagus, tenderstem broccoli, rucola, cabbage, napa cabbage, brussels sprout, leaf cabbage, red cabbage and bok choi)
• Fresh herbs: (Basilica, coriander, dill, mint, thyme, salvia, lemon balm, rosemary, oregano, tarragon, lovage and lemongrass)
• Occasionally some other vegetables like spinach, celery, sorrel, globe artichoke and radish. Depending on the grocery store selection.
  
  

Hello and welcome!

I think you are doing great, minus the fruit.

What is wrong with grocery store greens?
1. Low calcium and sometimes low calcium to phosphorous ratio.
2. Low fiber for some.
3. Lack of nutrition. (I'm looking at YOU lettuce...)
4. Some have deleterious compounds like goiterogens.

You are already doing all the right stuff to correct these problems. You added fiber with the soaked hay pellets. You are adding calcium. You've got lots of variety, and you are limiting the goiterogens. You get an "A"! Add weeds and leaves when they are available. Look for Mazuri, Pre Alpin, or Komodo pellets to add as further supplements. Can you get those in Finland?

Here is the standard starter info for people new to the forum:

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Thanks! I have read your info for new members and the russian tortoise care sheet. I have seen some say that the tortoise table is overly cautious with some of it's plant listings. Is that true? Are there specific plants I should look for?

Unfortunately any of those pellets aren't available for me. These are the diffrent pellets I have seen sold in pet stores for herbivorous tortoises here in Finland: JBL Herbil, Oxbow Critical care Herbivore, Sera Reptil professional herbivour, Sera Raffy Vital, Sera Raffy Vital Nature, ZooMed Natural grassland, Tropical Biorept and Agrobs Testudo Fibre. I am on the fence about buying any of these, since I am not sure about the quality and with most of them I have not been able to find a detailed list of their contents. The Oxbow is a new brand to me. Aquatic turtles are way more common here in Finland and pellets for them are sold even in some grocery stores.

Have you heard of any of these brands/pellets? Do you think some of them are worth buying?

 

[Tom]

Thanks! I have read your info for new members and the russian tortoise care sheet. I have seen some say that the tortoise table is overly cautious with some of it's plant listings. Is that true? Are there specific plants I should look for?

Unfortunately any of those pellets aren't available for me. These are the diffrent pellets I have seen sold in pet stores for herbivorous tortoises here in Finland: JBL Herbil, Oxbow Critical care Herbivore, Sera Reptil professional herbivour, Sera Raffy Vital, Sera Raffy Vital Nature, ZooMed Natural grassland, Tropical Biorept and Agrobs Testudo Fibre. I am on the fence about buying any of these, since I am not sure about the quality and with most of them I have not been able to find a detailed list of their contents. The Oxbow is a new brand to me. Aquatic turtles are way more common here in Finland and pellets for them are sold even in some grocery stores.

Have you heard of any of these brands/pellets? Do you think some of them are worth buying?

Oxbow critical care is a good product, but its too messy for supplemental use. I use that for tube feeding sick reptiles. The ZooMed pellets are great, but like any good food, it requires a lengthy introduction process. With the variety that your tortoise is already eating, it will probably take to the ZooMed pellets quicker than most. I'm not familiar with the others, but I'll bet they are good for variety. Can you get Mazuri? That's a good supplemental food too.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Thanks! I have read your info for new members and the russian tortoise care sheet. I have seen some say that the tortoise table is overly cautious with some of it's plant listings. Is that true? Are there specific plants I should look for?

Unfortunately any of those pellets aren't available for me. These are the diffrent pellets I have seen sold in pet stores for herbivorous tortoises here in Finland: JBL Herbil, Oxbow Critical care Herbivore, Sera Reptil professional herbivour, Sera Raffy Vital, Sera Raffy Vital Nature, ZooMed Natural grassland, Tropical Biorept and Agrobs Testudo Fibre. I am on the fence about buying any of these, since I am not sure about the quality and with most of them I have not been able to find a detailed list of their contents. The Oxbow is a new brand to me. Aquatic turtles are way more common here in Finland and pellets for them are sold even in some grocery stores.

Have you heard of any of these brands/pellets? Do you think some of them are worth buying?

Agrobs is a manufacturer of Pre Alpin (like Purina and Mazuri/Nutrazu), so I would give it a try at the first place.

The Tortoise Table is "on the safe side", yes. Some plants are marked unsafe due to oxalates and oxalic acid, for example. Which is less a concern for tortoises (they don't form stones because of oxalates and some plants have great Calcium/Phosphorus ratio that overweights oxalates content). That doesn't make a spinach a good food, but at least, you don't have to pick out of Spring Mix bags.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

I can't get the Mazuri, but I will try the Agrobs food. I got my tortoise to eat the hay pellets on my first try by just soaking them and feeding on top of his greens. Maybe I got lucky, maybe he was fed some pellet food by his previous owners and was already used to it. I hope the same happens with the Agrobs!

 

[RosemaryDW]

This poster is in Finland guys so his options don't match what we have in North America or the U.K. Not the weeds list, not the Tortoise Table.

OP we can work this out. First, squash, zucchini and squash are excellent foods, just not for feeding every day. Endive is fine. Romaine isn't ideal but mixed in with plenty of other of stuff is okay. Can you ever get the tops of either radish or turnips? They are great foods. (They also practically grow themselves if you ever have a spot to try them in.) Rucola is what we call arugula and also fine to feed. Watercress is also fine. Is corn salad/mache/lambs lettuce sold in stores there? Another one to try.

If there any other leafy greens there let us know; they might be better than you think.

Your Russian should never have apples or bananas, full stop. His system isn't built to digest them. The occasional bite of carrot or bell pepper is fine. A mushroom or two, a couple of snap peas or green beans, a few okra (if that's a thing there) all are good supplemental foods. A thin slice of sweet potato or yam is also fine if you have them. I give my Russian one of these once a week or so; they have their own benefits.

Wow, your Russian is a great eater, and I mean a great one, If he's eating of those tough leaved herbs he's getting a nice jolt of fiber.

Pre Alpin is a good supplemental pellet so I'd consider the Agrobs product. Mazuri is called Nutra Zu in many markets so you might take a look for it under that name. And plenty of people feed Zoo Med.

Is your male Russian grown? If so he only needs a small pinch of calcium a week, a sprinkling of fairy dust basically. There is plenty of it in all those brassicas you are feeding.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

This poster is in Finland guys so his options don't match what we have in North America or the U.K. Not the weeds list, not the Tortoise Table.

OP we can work this out. First, squash, zucchini and squash are excellent foods, just not for feeding every day. Endive is fine. Romaine isn't ideal but mixed in with plenty of other of stuff is okay. Can you ever get the tops of either radish or turnips? They are great foods. (They also practically grow themselves if you ever have a spot to try them in.) Rucola is what we call arugula and also fine to feed. Watercress is also fine. Is corn salad/mache/lambs lettuce sold in stores there? Another one to try.

If there any other leafy greens there let us know; they might be better than you think.

Your Russian should never have apples or bananas, full stop. His system isn't built to digest them. The occasional bite of carrot or bell pepper is fine. A mushroom or two, a couple of snap peas or green beans, a few okra (if that's a thing there) all are good supplemental foods. A thin slice of sweet potato or yam is also fine if you have them. I give my Russian one of these once a week or so; they have their own benefits.

Wow, your Russian is a great eater, and I mean a great one, If he's eating of those tough leaved herbs he's getting a nice jolt of fiber.

Pre Alpin is a good supplemental pellet so I'd consider the Agrobs product. Mazuri is called Nutra Zu in many markets so you might take a look for it under that name. And plenty of people feed Zoo Med.

Is your male Russian grown? If so he only needs a small pinch of calcium a week, a sprinkling of fairy dust basically. There is plenty of it in all those brassicas you are feeding.

I have not fed him any apple or banana while he has been with me for the last two months and I won't feed them after doing my research. I just listed them as he was fed them at his previous home and I tried to list everything he has been eating during the winters.

I have gone through the tortoise tables list of toxic/harmful plants and we have some of them here in Finland. Of course this took some time translating plant names but I had the time considering getting a pet tortoise. We don't really have endive, escarole, okra or dandelion greens at out grocery stores but a wide variety of brassicas are a stable

Maybe I will lessen the amount of calcium I am giving him? All I know about his age that he is sexually mature, so at least over 15 years old. I don't have a vet near me with the expertise to age tortoises, and I believe it is difficult.

 

[RosemaryDW]

He's an adult then and doesn't need much. He's not doing a ton of growing or producing eggs like a female might be. Supplements can be overdone, especially when someone is a new owner.

Russians eat a fair amount of brassicas in the wild but it shouldn't be the largest component of the diet. You will need to find chicories of some sort eventually. If that is only in spring/summer that would be fine. In the wild Russians spend a good amount of the year eating mainly a dandelion relative and a local buttercup (Tortoise Table is trash on buttercups; they are a huge part of the native diet). As the year progresses they move on a heavier percentage of brassicas. But on balance it's chicory and buttercups (ranunculus).

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

He's an adult then and doesn't need much. He's not doing a ton of growing or producing eggs like a female might be. Supplements can be overdone, especially when someone is a new owner.

Russians eat a fair amount of brassicas in the wild but it shouldn't be the largest component of the diet. You will need to find chicories of some sort eventually. If that is only in spring/summer that would be fine. In the wild Russians spend a good amount of the year eating mainly a dandelion relative and a local buttercup (Tortoise Table is trash on buttercups; they are a huge part of the native diet). As the year progresses they move on a heavier percentage of brassicas. But on balance it's chicory and buttercups (ranunculus).

Yeah, once it is spring and summer I can collect dandelion greens etc. from our garden (we don't use any pesticides and there is minimal pollution). He will be eating mainly weeds soon, it is just that it's not quite spring here yet. There is still almost a foot of snow outside, but I'm already planning his outdoor enclosure where he can spend time on warmer days. On colder days in the summer (15 degrees celcius and under) I plan on bringing him wild plants to eat inside.

Now I feel much better about him eating the grocery store diet during the colder months! I'm still researching and hoping that next winter he may spend his first brumation

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Winter is quickly approaching us here in Finland, so I have been brainstorming ideas for Edwards diet. Some questions I have:

• How often can I feed brassicas and goitrogenic plants?
• Now that it is fall and I have been foraging for weeds, I have wondered, how dangerous older leaves really are? On the tortoise species, many plants are listed to develop toxins in their older leaves. Can any yellowed/fallen leaves be fed?
• Later in the winter I usually sprout tomatoes and peppers. Is the tortoise table right about these being toxic, or can I feed them?
• This might be stupid, but I thought that the peels of vegetables must have more fiber right? So could I feed stuff like zucchini peels, carrot peels or swede peels?
• What about foods high in protein, how often can they be fed? I was thinking like broad bean, green bean or peas.

 

[Tom]

Winter is quickly approaching us here in Finland, so I have been brainstorming ideas for Edwards diet. Some questions I have:

• How often can I feed brassicas and goitrogenic plants?
• Now that it is fall and I have been foraging for weeds, I have wondered, how dangerous older leaves really are? On the tortoise species, many plants are listed to develop toxins in their older leaves. Can any yellowed/fallen leaves be fed?
• Later in the winter I usually sprout tomatoes and peppers. Is the tortoise table right about these being toxic, or can I feed them?
• This might be stupid, but I thought that the peels of vegetables must have more fiber right? So could I feed stuff like zucchini peels, carrot peels or swede peels?
• What about foods high in protein, how often can they be fed? I was thinking like broad bean, green bean or peas.

There is not a lot of peer reviewed scientific evidence for these questions, but I will share my opinions based on decades of feeding lots of tortoises, and what little dietary material I've learned over the years.

-I try to avoid the brassicas. I don't think once or twice a week will do any harm. I do feed some to my tortoise when it becomes available because somebody gave me some left over broccoli, or something like that for free. I usually mix it into a five gallon bucket of tortoise food with lots of other stuff, and it is a one time occurrence. On average, I'd say mine see a small amount of brassica or one sort or another mixed in with other foods about once or twice a month.
-My tortoises definitely show a preference against older grape or mulberry leaves but they still eat them. The mulberry trees drop their yellow leaves into the tortoise pens and those leaves disappear every year, so I don't think it is harmful. Same with most of my weed species. I imagine this varies with each plant species. For example, I know green oak leaves are toxic, but dried up brown oak leaves are used as roach food for many roach species, and seem to be highly beneficial to them. I don't have much helpful info for you on this subject.
-Tomatoes and peppers are NOT toxic. If they were, my tortoises would all be dead. Neither are great foods either, but small amounts mixed in with other stuff are a welcome treat and good for some variety. I don't buy either, but I do feed it to them when I get it for free. The catering trucks on the film sets often give me their leftovers that would otherwise be thrown away. I feed the fruits to my roaches and parrots, and all the veggies of all types get mixed into the food buckets with leaves and greens and all the other stuff.
-Same story with the peels. Some family friends own a restaurant. They save me the peels and greens. I mix the big bag with soaked horse hay, horse pellets, mulberry leaves, and whatever other good stuff I have on hand and feed this to the big ones about once a week. The peels and lettuce make up 5-10% of the mixture. By the way, what is a "swede"? I'm pretty sure you aren't peeling Swedish people to feed to your tortoise, so I'm wondering if that was a typo, or something lost in translation.
-The legume question is a bit controversial. It's popular amongst tortoise people to harp on low protein diets. While I don't think we should feed them hot dogs and chicken, I do think some plant protein is good for them. How much and how often? There is no science behind this, but I can speak from personal experience. I feed mine some clover, plantain weed, fresh grown alfalfa, green beans, peas, and other such "high" protein foods once or twice a week. It causes me no problems that I can detect. I will say that hydration becomes of utmost importance when feeding higher protein foods. Urates are a by-product of protein digestion that can form and congeal into bladder stones in a dehydrated tortoise. I also firmly believe that lack of exercise and walking plays a big role in this because of all that I've seen over the decades. So if you choose to feed higher protein foods, as I do, be sure your tortoise stays well hydrated and has ample roaming room in its enclosures. Anecdotally, there is a man in AZ who keeps hundreds of adult sulcatas and produces many thousands of babies annually. The primary food for his adults herds is bales of alfalfa hay. He throws whole bales into his giant pens with dozens of adult sulcatas and removes the hay strings. They eat it all up and he throws in another bale. I'm not recommending this. I'm only reporting that it seems to work for him, and he doesn't seem to have dying tortoises with bladder stones all over the place. His tortoises drink from muddy ponds and self-regulate their own water, and their pens are several acres in size.

Hope this anecdotal info helps. Questions are welcome.

 

[zolasmum]

Swede is another name for Rutabaga, as you call it in the USA.
Angie

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Thank you for you answer!

All my questions come from a place of trying to provide as much variety asn possible, while avoiding any other health risks.

Tomatoes and peppers are NOT toxic. If they were, my tortoises would all be dead. Neither are great foods either, but small amounts mixed in with other stuff are a welcome treat and good for some variety. I don't buy either, but I do feed it to them when I get it for free. The catering trucks on the film sets often give me their leftovers that would otherwise be thrown away. I feed the fruits to my roaches and parrots, and all the veggies of all types get mixed into the food buckets with leaves and greens and all the other stuff.

Sorry I wasn't clear, but I meant tomato and pepper LEAVES. Basically, the common argument is that tomato comes from the same family as potatoes and deadly nightshade, and that the leaves and unripe fruit are toxic. However, there is a lot of confusion about what that toxin would be and I wanted to know if this was just being overly cautious.

By the way, what is a "swede"? I'm pretty sure you aren't peeling Swedish people to feed to your tortoise, so I'm wondering if that was a typo, or something lost in translation.

Lost in translation, I guess. I meant swede, the vegetable . @zolasmum already pointed out that it is apparently called Rutabaga in the US!

. I feed mine some clover, plantain weed, fresh grown alfalfa, green beans, peas, and other such "high" protein foods once or twice a week. It causes me no problems that I can detect. I will say that hydration becomes of utmost importance when feeding higher protein foods. Urates are a by-product of protein digestion that can form and congeal into bladder stones in a dehydrated tortoise. I also firmly believe that lack of exercise and walking plays a big role in this because of all that I've seen over the decades.

As far as legumes go, during the summer I have fed clover and plantain feed for my tortoise, but was wondering if I could give stuff like green beans and beans from the grocery store to provide more variety. The reason why I am especially worried about this, is that Edward does have a history of bladder stones. Would this be a reason to avoid food high in protein altogether?

 

[Tom]

Thank you for you answer!

All my questions come from a place of trying to provide as much variety asn possible, while avoiding any other health risks.

Sorry I wasn't clear, but I meant tomato and pepper LEAVES. Basically, the common argument is that tomato comes from the same family as potatoes and deadly nightshade, and that the leaves and unripe fruit are toxic. However, there is a lot of confusion about what that toxin would be and I wanted to know if this was just being overly cautious.

Lost in translation, I guess. I meant swede, the vegetable . @zolasmum already pointed out that it is apparently called Rutabaga in the US!

As far as legumes go, during the summer I have fed clover and plantain feed for my tortoise, but was wondering if I could give stuff like green beans and beans from the grocery store to provide more variety. The reason why I am especially worried about this, is that Edward does have a history of bladder stones. Would this be a reason to avoid food high in protein altogether?

I've read the leaves of potatoes and tomatoes are toxic. I've not read anything about the leaves of pepper plants. I believed what I read, so I've never offer these leaves as food.

I know the name "rutabaga", but I could't even tell you what it looks like.

Rather than avoiding legumes, I would increase hydration.

 

[Yvonne G]

Tomato leaves are ok in moderation.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Tomato leaves are ok in moderation.

What about pepper leaves? Ok too?

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

I've read the leaves of potatoes and tomatoes are toxic. I've not read anything about the leaves of pepper plants. I believed what I read, so I've never offer these leaves as food.

This is one example of what I have read:
Tomatoes

Browse and Search the Tortoise Table Plant Database

Browse and Search the Tortoise Table Plant Database

www.thetortoisetable.org.uk

Peppers

Browse and Search the Tortoise Table Plant Database

Browse and Search the Tortoise Table Plant Database

www.thetortoisetable.org.uk

 

[RosemaryDW]

Brassicas are actually a big part of the native diet for your Russian, higher than for some others. While I think you can go a little higher, twenty percent brassicas should be fine. In the wild they largely eat a couple of dandelion relatives, lots of buttercups (YUP IT'S TRUE), several brassicas, and a fair amount of poppies (YUP, ALSO TRUE). They eat foods mammals don't or can't.

They eat other plants as well but these are the heavy hitters.