Gupta and Mazuri and Protein???

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Redstrike

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I don't own a Sulcata, I have two Redfoots and I use both Mazuri and the Zoo Med Forest Diet. My hope is that they offset any weaknesses in one or the other. They get Mazuri once per month and the forest diet once every couple weeks. The rest is weeds and grocery produce.
 

Kvoigt

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BrinnANDGupta said:
Gupta seems to really like the Mazuri and I don't think its a bad thing to feed them but I do think almost all information that you read on the web at different sights that are still in the mind set that protein (too fast of growth) and calcium levels are the cause of pyramiding and other little factors. What puzzles me then is if this is what they have decided causes pyramiding and they use these different dietary techniques to fix pyramiding and not pay attention to the humidity then don't their Sulcata still pyramid? Which would completely discredit their thinking on what causes pyramiding
I have yet to come across a care sheet that follows that thinking which pictures of smooth sulcata to go along with it like you have Tom. If anyone finds one I would be very interested in seeing it.

In contraste to Mazuri you have Zoo Med grassland tortoise food which I have to admit the ingredients impresses me more than Mazuri , what do yall think?


Ingredients
Suncured Oat Hay, Suncured Timothy Hay, Soybean Hulls, Wheat Middlings, Suncured Alfalfa Meal, Whole Ground Wheat, Escarole, Endive, Calcium Carbonate, Monocalcium Phosphate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Yeast Culture, Dandelion Greens (dried), Sodium Bicarbonate, Soy Lecithin, Direct-Fed Microorganisms (heat stable cultures of Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus casei, Bifidobacterium bifidum, Enterococcus faecium, Aspergillus oryzae), Yeast Extract, Hydrated Sodium Calcium Aluminosilicate, Garlic Extract, Anise Extract, Cassia Extract (Chinese), Ginger Extract, Horseradish Extract, Juniper Extract, Natural Flavoring, Marigold (petal extract), Yucca schidigera (whole plant powder), L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of stabilized Vitamin C), Zinc Methionine Complex, Selenium Yeast, Vitamin E Supplement, Mixed Tocopherols, Rosemary Extract, Ascorbic Acid, Citric Acid, Lecithin, Silicon Dioxide, Choline Chloride, Vitamin A Supplement (Retinyl Acetate), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Niacin Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate (source of Vitamin B5), Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (source of Vitamin K activity), Riboflavin Supplement (source of Vitamin B2), Thiamine Mononitrate (source of Vitamin B1), Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (source of Vitamin B6), Biotin, Folic Acid, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Zinc Oxide, Manganous Oxide, Ferrous Sulfate, Tribasic Copper Chloride, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite.

Analysis

Crude Protein (Min) 9.0%Crude Fat (Min) 2.0%Crude Fiber (Max) 26.0%Moisture (Max) 13.0%Ash (Max) 10.0%Calcium (Min) 0.9%Calcium (Max) 1.3%Phosphorus (Min) 0.4%Sodium (Max) 0.3%

grasslandtortoisealt.jpg



I'm not promoting it, I'm just asking opinions. Just curiosity on what the experienced people think


FADE2BLACK_1973 said:
Well Spike was born in May 2009 (from what the breeder told me) and he is a large 10" and 7 lb. 2 1/2 year old now. He was fed on hays, grazing grasses and weeds, greens, cactus, and mazuri. Raised up outside in sunny Florida's Southern sunshine. I think he is good size for his age but I dont really know what a 2 1/2 year old sulcata's average size and weight should be though. Mazuri was part of his diet and not a stable. Mixing them all is what I was told (from the breeders advice) to be the best diet to make sure he will get everything he needs. Dont forget that extra calcium like Tom mentioned. I have always gave extra supplements for all my reptiles over the years.

Your tortoise is pretty, I remembering seeing pictures of him. Did you feed him Mazuri everyday? :)







My leo wont even touch the Mazuri... so i use the grass land zoo med .. he eats it just fine i soak it for several min and mix it onto all his greens he gobbles it right up i like the Zoo med grassland WAY better not only cause its what he eats but it just seems more natural? just my opinion... nay to Mazuri...
 

TortandHare

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BrinnANDGupta said:
Petsmart sells it


Gupta wouldnt touch it either when I first put it in there , but now he loves it mixed with a little mazuri piled on top of his greens
I just kept putting it in his cage and putting him next to it and one day he just ate it.
U can just buy mazuri off eBay, they have fast free shipping or Amazon
Lots and lots of online places sell mazuri and then u can just mix the grassland into the mazuri and he gets both
Hope that helps



Thanks! My wonderful local store took back the Zoo Med for now. I am going to see if my spoiled little one will try the mazuri.
 

BrinnANDTorts

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TortandHare said:
Thanks! My wonderful local store took back the Zoo Med for now. I am going to see if my spoiled little one will try the mazuri.

No problem , I hope your little tort likes it :)
 

EKLC

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I needed to put weight on my yearling lep so I recently introduced him to Mazuri. For the past two weeks I've been pressuring him to no avail. I think mixing mazuri with his favorite foods actually turned him against his favorite foods! But the past few days he has given in and is eating mazuri mush plain, and on his own. I think a lot of persistence can do the trick
 

FADE2BLACK_1973

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I order some Mazuri yesterday so I should get it next week. I think Spike is getting tired of the greens for some reason. So hoping that Mazuri will satisfy him. Also will add some Zoo Med Grassland Tortoise Food to it.
 

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BrinnANDGupta said:
Gupta seems to really like the Mazuri and I don't think its a bad thing to feed them but I do think almost all information that you read on the web at different sights that are still in the mind set that protein (too fast of growth) and calcium levels are the cause of pyramiding and other little factors. What puzzles me then is if this is what they have decided causes pyramiding and they use these different dietary techniques to fix pyramiding and not pay attention to the humidity then don't their Sulcata still pyramid? Which would completely discredit their thinking on what causes pyramiding
I have yet to come across a care sheet that follows that thinking which pictures of smooth sulcata to go along with it like you have Tom. If anyone finds one I would be very interested in seeing it.

This has been my point exactly. When I first joined this forum I came in hot and heavy wanting to share what I KNEW to be true AND false about pyramiding. It offended more than a few people (and so did my brash style and passion for the subject) and there was quite a bit of arguing about academic and theoretical points. I decided to "put up or shut up" and asked others to do the same. Hence came "The End of Pyramiding". I have yet to see anyone do a thread and say "I'm going to raise them dry, on rabbit pellets with no water bowl and minimal soaking, BUT only feed them such and such, and demonstrate smooth growth". I do acknowledge that there are many ways to grow them smooth and healthy, but "dry" is not one of them. Any reasonable diet should be fine for a sulcata. They are not picky and will thrive on just about any normal tortoise food source. I'm not advocating fried chicken or anything like that, but I don't think it matters whether we feed Mazuri, ZooMed, grocery store greens, weeds, grass, leaves, flowers, dried grass hay, or cactus in any variable combination.

I'm just one man. I don't know everything, BUT I have been working with tortoises for 25 years, sulcatas for 20, and I have been all over the country and the world learning what I've learned. No I don't have reams of paper work showing scientific, unquestionable proof, but I do try to explain why I think what I think and what I've have seen pretty thoroughly. I view all this info as puzzle pieces. No one knows how many pieces there are or what the finished puzzle will look like, but some have more pieces than others. I just got another piece from Tomas, the sulcata researcher from Senegal, the other day.

Most people will now agree that protein does NOT cause pyramiding. Most will also agree that hydration and humidity do play a fairly large role. The Austrian study proves this. There IS scientific proof of that one. In my opinion the "fast growth" thing should have been discredited with the protein thing. For some odd reason it persists. Here again is MY opinion: Fast growth is NOT bad, IF conditions, diet and calcium levels are all good. If you feed dog food, no UV, and no water in a small cage, then yes, fast growth will be bad. I have seen torts fed all "wrong" still grow smooth and beautiful because they were in the sun and humidity and well hydrated. I have seen torts (including my adults) that were fed a great diet, in relatively small amounts (slow growth) in great big pens with lots of sunshine and they still pyramided because they were too DRY.


And BTW Chris, Spike looks great. 10" and 7 pounds is on the high side of normal for a 2 1/2 year old, but that clearly shows that "fast" growth is not necessarily bad.
 

FADE2BLACK_1973

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Tom said:
BrinnANDGupta said:
Gupta seems to really like the Mazuri and I don't think its a bad thing to feed them but I do think almost all information that you read on the web at different sights that are still in the mind set that protein (too fast of growth) and calcium levels are the cause of pyramiding and other little factors. What puzzles me then is if this is what they have decided causes pyramiding and they use these different dietary techniques to fix pyramiding and not pay attention to the humidity then don't their Sulcata still pyramid? Which would completely discredit their thinking on what causes pyramiding
I have yet to come across a care sheet that follows that thinking which pictures of smooth sulcata to go along with it like you have Tom. If anyone finds one I would be very interested in seeing it.

This has been my point exactly. When I first joined this forum I came in hot and heavy wanting to share what I KNEW to be true AND false about pyramiding. It offended more than a few people (and so did my brash style and passion for the subject) and there was quite a bit of arguing about academic and theoretical points. I decided to "put up or shut up" and asked others to do the same. Hence came "The End of Pyramiding". I have yet to see anyone do a thread and say "I'm going to raise them dry, on rabbit pellets with no water bowl and minimal soaking, BUT only feed them such and such, and demonstrate smooth growth". I do acknowledge that there are many ways to grow them smooth and healthy, but "dry" is not one of them. Any reasonable diet should be fine for a sulcata. They are not picky and will thrive on just about any normal tortoise food source. I'm not advocating fried chicken or anything like that, but I don't think it matters whether we feed Mazuri, ZooMed, grocery store greens, weeds, grass, leaves, flowers, dried grass hay, or cactus in any variable combination.

I'm just one man. I don't know everything, BUT I have been working with tortoises for 25 years, sulcatas for 20, and I have been all over the country and the world learning what I've learned. No I don't have reams of paper work showing scientific, unquestionable proof, but I do try to explain why I think what I think and what I've have seen pretty thoroughly. I view all this info as puzzle pieces. No one knows how many pieces there are or what the finished puzzle will look like, but some have more pieces than others. I just got another piece from Tomas, the sulcata researcher from Senegal, the other day.

Most people will now agree that protein does NOT cause pyramiding. Most will also agree that hydration and humidity do play a fairly large role. The Austrian study proves this. There IS scientific proof of that one. In my opinion the "fast growth" thing should have been discredited with the protein thing. For some odd reason it persists. Here again is MY opinion: Fast growth is NOT bad, IF conditions, diet and calcium levels are all good. If you feed dog food, no UV, and no water in a small cage, then yes, fast growth will be bad. I have seen torts fed all "wrong" still grow smooth and beautiful because they were in the sun and humidity and well hydrated. I have seen torts (including my adults) that were fed a great diet, in relatively small amounts (slow growth) in great big pens with lots of sunshine and they still pyramided because they were too DRY.


And BTW Chris, Spike looks great. 10" and 7 pounds is on the high side of normal for a 2 1/2 year old, but that clearly shows that "fast" growth is not necessarily bad.

Tom, I have done and read a ton of research on pyramiding for awhile now from all different websites and I got to the point that I thought it was caused by high protein diets. Until I joined this site and read alot of your thread's on the subject and also from what Tomas stated about wild sulcata hatchlings where found in the marshes.

Spike was raised outdoor with many other sulcata tort's and was fed alot of different food, from hay to mazuri and such. His age and his size, I also kinda thought he was abit above average from what I have seen other member's sulcatas near his age.
 

BrinnANDTorts

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FADE2BLACK_1973 said:
Tom said:
BrinnANDGupta said:
Gupta seems to really like the Mazuri and I don't think its a bad thing to feed them but I do think almost all information that you read on the web at different sights that are still in the mind set that protein (too fast of growth) and calcium levels are the cause of pyramiding and other little factors. What puzzles me then is if this is what they have decided causes pyramiding and they use these different dietary techniques to fix pyramiding and not pay attention to the humidity then don't their Sulcata still pyramid? Which would completely discredit their thinking on what causes pyramiding
I have yet to come across a care sheet that follows that thinking which pictures of smooth sulcata to go along with it like you have Tom. If anyone finds one I would be very interested in seeing it.

This has been my point exactly. When I first joined this forum I came in hot and heavy wanting to share what I KNEW to be true AND false about pyramiding. It offended more than a few people (and so did my brash style and passion for the subject) and there was quite a bit of arguing about academic and theoretical points. I decided to "put up or shut up" and asked others to do the same. Hence came "The End of Pyramiding". I have yet to see anyone do a thread and say "I'm going to raise them dry, on rabbit pellets with no water bowl and minimal soaking, BUT only feed them such and such, and demonstrate smooth growth". I do acknowledge that there are many ways to grow them smooth and healthy, but "dry" is not one of them. Any reasonable diet should be fine for a sulcata. They are not picky and will thrive on just about any normal tortoise food source. I'm not advocating fried chicken or anything like that, but I don't think it matters whether we feed Mazuri, ZooMed, grocery store greens, weeds, grass, leaves, flowers, dried grass hay, or cactus in any variable combination.

I'm just one man. I don't know everything, BUT I have been working with tortoises for 25 years, sulcatas for 20, and I have been all over the country and the world learning what I've learned. No I don't have reams of paper work showing scientific, unquestionable proof, but I do try to explain why I think what I think and what I've have seen pretty thoroughly. I view all this info as puzzle pieces. No one knows how many pieces there are or what the finished puzzle will look like, but some have more pieces than others. I just got another piece from Tomas, the sulcata researcher from Senegal, the other day.

Most people will now agree that protein does NOT cause pyramiding. Most will also agree that hydration and humidity do play a fairly large role. The Austrian study proves this. There IS scientific proof of that one. In my opinion the "fast growth" thing should have been discredited with the protein thing. For some odd reason it persists. Here again is MY opinion: Fast growth is NOT bad, IF conditions, diet and calcium levels are all good. If you feed dog food, no UV, and no water in a small cage, then yes, fast growth will be bad. I have seen torts fed all "wrong" still grow smooth and beautiful because they were in the sun and humidity and well hydrated. I have seen torts (including my adults) that were fed a great diet, in relatively small amounts (slow growth) in great big pens with lots of sunshine and they still pyramided because they were too DRY.


And BTW Chris, Spike looks great. 10" and 7 pounds is on the high side of normal for a 2 1/2 year old, but that clearly shows that "fast" growth is not necessarily bad.

Tom, I have done and read a ton of research on pyramiding for awhile now from all different websites and I got to the point that I thought it was caused by high protein diets. Until I joined this site and read alot of your thread's on the subject and also from what Tomas stated about wild sulcata hatchlings where found in the marshes.

Spike was raised outdoor with many other sulcata tort's and was fed alot of different food, from hay to mazuri and such. His age and his size, I also kinda thought he was abit above average from what I have seen other member's sulcatas near his age.

wild sulcata hatchlings were found in marshes ???
 

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BrinnANDGupta said:
wild sulcata hatchlings were found in marshes ???

You betcha. Straight out of the mouth of a man who was born and raised in Senegal Africa and has been studying wild sulcatas his whole life. I will see him again next weekend (Dec. 3rd) and maybe again before then too. I will post anything new that I learn, but here's the gist:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Wild-Baby-Sulcatas#axzz1ebQjnXyh

This one sort of explains things a bit too:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-2011-TTPG-Conference#axzz1ebQjnXyh
 

BrinnANDTorts

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Tom said:
BrinnANDGupta said:
wild sulcata hatchlings were found in marshes ???

You betcha. Straight out of the mouth of a man who was born and raised in Senegal Africa and has been studying wild sulcatas his whole life. I will see him again next weekend (Dec. 3rd) and maybe again before then too. I will post anything new that I learn, but here's the gist:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Wild-Baby-Sulcatas#axzz1ebQjnXyh

This one sort of explains things a bit too:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-2011-TTPG-Conference#axzz1ebQjnXyh

That is a very fasacating.
new addition to my bucket list, go to Africa to see Thomas in Senegal. And see lots of other things but definately that too.
Could this by why Gupta much rather likes his shade beside the light than actually basking in it ? I never see him bask with his little legs out scretch and such, I also have never ever ever seen him drink water... not in his soaks (and he gets long soaks) or
from the water bowl in his cage




Tom said:
You betcha. Straight out of the mouth of a man who was born and raised in Senegal Africa and has been studying wild sulcatas his whole life. I will see him again next weekend (Dec. 3rd) and maybe again before then too. I will post anything new that I learn, but here's the gist:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Wild-Baby-Sulcatas#axzz1ebQjnXyh

This one sort of explains things a bit too:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-2011-TTPG-Conference#axzz1ebQjnXyh

Now that I think about it I didn't even know there were really marshes in Africa, that may be really dumb but I didn't. I figured it was pretty dry
It makes since kinda that the babies might thrive in the shadey, sheltered very green lush wet Marsh as opposed to the dry land and grasses. It also amazes me how Gupta doesn't have shell rot... I keep him and his big new cage very hot and humid and just wet. No shell rot at all but my sisters redfoot has it bad. Of course we are treating it and its getting better, she wasn't even kept in as wet and humid conditions as Gupta (I'm not drowned Gupta in constant water or anything either)
I just figured rainforest turtles would be very resistant to shell rot,
I find redfoots hard to take care of in general.

Tom have u seen the pictures of this forum of the sulcata / leopard hybrid babies ... that's crazy right? I still don't see how its possible and such
(Dont worry I'm no goin to be trying anything like that lol)

Are leopards that resistant to shell rot ? I wonder where the leopard babies and adults love in the wild (I know there from Africa, just more specifically where)
 

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Do you have a temp gun? If Gupta avoids being directly under the bulb, it might be too hot. Worth double checking any how. I usually shoot for around 100 directly under the bulb.

Redfoots are prone to shell rot. Ask anyone who keeps them. They need it humid, but not wet on their plastron all day. Sulcatas and leopards almost never get shell rot no matter what anyone does with them. Last year we had two very experienced tortoise vet at the TTPG conference and Dr. Funk had only seen one case of shell rot on a sulcata or leopard. It was a sulcata who was out in the cold in AZ all winter and the hide box had been flooded for months due to a broken pipe. This sulcata laid in the mud all winter in the cold and had some "mild" shell rot. The other vet, Dr. Offerman, had never seen it in a sulcata, but had seen one case in a leopard. The leopard had been chewed on by a dog and the affected area did get infected causing a "shell rot" condition. That's it. I've asked a lot of keepers and a lot of vets. Those are the only two shell rot cases I have ever heard of in a sulcata or a leopard.
 

BrinnANDTorts

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Tom said:
Do you have a temp gun? If Gupta avoids being directly under the bulb, it might be too hot. Worth double checking any how. I usually shoot for around 100 directly under the bulb.

Redfoots are prone to shell rot. Ask anyone who keeps them. They need it humid, but not wet on their plastron all day. Sulcatas and leopards almost never get shell rot no matter what anyone does with them. Last year we had two very experienced tortoise vet at the TTPG conference and Dr. Funk had only seen one case of shell rot on a sulcata or leopard. It was a sulcata who was out in the cold in AZ all winter and the hide box had been flooded for months due to a broken pipe. This sulcata laid in the mud all winter in the cold and had some "mild" shell rot. The other vet, Dr. Offerman, had never seen it in a sulcata, but had seen one case in a leopard. The leopard had been chewed on by a dog and the affected area did get infected causing a "shell rot" condition. That's it. I've asked a lot of keepers and a lot of vets. Those are the only two shell rot cases I have ever heard of in a sulcata or a leopard.

That's sad that those sulcatas were kept in that sad of condinitions I see a lot online that people trying to get rid of that have bad shells, not just some pyramiding but shell deformaties and severe pyramding. It makes me wanna concact those people and say something but I know its not a good idea.
Today during Thanksgiving all my family hoarded into my room to see Gupta and his new cage. I made sure they knew he got like huge
 

BrinnANDTorts

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Tom said:
Do you have a temp gun? If Gupta avoids being directly under the bulb, it might be too hot. Worth double checking any how. I usually shoot for around 100 directly under the bulb.

Redfoots are prone to shell rot. Ask anyone who keeps them. They need it humid, but not wet on their plastron all day. Sulcatas and leopards almost never get shell rot no matter what anyone does with them. Last year we had two very experienced tortoise vet at the TTPG conference and Dr. Funk had only seen one case of shell rot on a sulcata or leopard. It was a sulcata who was out in the cold in AZ all winter and the hide box had been flooded for months due to a broken pipe. This sulcata laid in the mud all winter in the cold and had some "mild" shell rot. The other vet, Dr. Offerman, had never seen it in a sulcata, but had seen one case in a leopard. The leopard had been chewed on by a dog and the affected area did get infected causing a "shell rot" condition. That's it. I've asked a lot of keepers and a lot of vets. Those are the only two shell rot cases I have ever heard of in a sulcata or a leopard.

I have a temp gun and I just checked and the tile that I put underneath the light and it's just too hot. I removed it and rechecked the temp and they r much better now. I feed him on the tile now so that it will help keep his nails not so long hopefully. I should probably find something a little bit more coarse
I'll watch him and see if he starts to bask :D
 

Kvoigt

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TortandHare said:
So I have had Stewie on a diet of varied greens since I brought him home about a year ago. I recently tried the Zoo Med grassland food and he will not touch it. Picks around it and just walks over it until it is sawdust. I talked to my local pet store about the Mazuri and they said they are looking for a local disributer and will call me when it comes in. Any tips on getting him to actually try it? I mixed the other in with his favorite greens and he was not interested in any way shape or farm.

the key is to soak it in water till really mushy! and add a lil extra water and mix it ONTO his greens realy well and he will chow it down! i did this with myleopard Sonne and seems to be getting enough that way .. i see it in his poo :) lol and i do mix it everyday on his greens just a few pieces like 4 -6 good sized ones (add more every week till u think he is really getting enough fiber n such) it may take a few days or even a week or 2 to adjust.. just from what ive seen with sonne and he is 18 months and was a fortold picky eater!! im changing that slowly :) good luck after 2 weeks of adding the grassland diet hes has new growth :)
 

BrinnANDTorts

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I put gupta a whole pile of food in his cage everyday but If u skip a day of feeding (dont worry this isn't cruel and u aren't starving him lol ) your little tort might be a little less picky about what he eats. Thats just something to try if u want to :D
Good luck!
 
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