Hatchling Growth Rates

[Neal]

It's been a very noticeable difference for me. As I've said before, my hatch rates for AI eggs are very low...less than 20% usually. Whereas the ones left in the ground take about twice as long to hatch out and hatch rates are around 100%. I have wondered how the prolonged incubation process, breaking of diapause, and overall conditions of the nests left in ground have influenced the differences I am seeing.

Even the age and maturity of the mothers I think might come into play as well. I'll be able to study that here in a few months after the first clutch of my female Jenny hatches out.

 

[wellington]

Neal, do you give your AI ones the shells also?

 

[Neal]

Not on purpose, but after they fully emerge from the egg, it usually takes me about a day or so to remove the egg. I've never noticed any egg shells being eaten, but I will purposely be leaving the shells in with them longer the next time around to see if they go for it.

 

[wellington]

Not on purpose, but after they fully emerge from the egg, it usually takes me about a day or so to remove the egg. I've never noticed any egg shells being eaten, but I will purposely be leaving the shells in with them longer the next time around to see if they go for it.

Good, that's what I was going to ask you to do, if you didn't. Be sure to let's us know if you notice a difference.

 

[TortoiseBoy1999]

Interesting.......

 

[Cowboy_Ken]

Doesn't anyone use sphagnum moss as a medium anymore?

 

[Tom]

Doesn't anyone use sphagnum moss as a medium anymore?

Yes they do, but I'm not sure it wouldn't do the same basic thing, and the acidic properties might prematurely break down the shells for some species. Not saying this is the case, just saying it might be.

 

[kanalomele]

I had an AI clutch of Russians this year at 100% hatch rate. The biggest difference i noticed was that i put the incubator in a location that maintained a very stable temp. This helped the incubator do the same. I will be very curious next year to see if the results are similar. These were also some of the most gorgeous vibrant hatchlings i have ever seen from anywhere.
This was from a large female who has laid successfully for me before and she actually produced a second clutch this year. I will be watching her closely next year.
I leave the babies in the incubator with their shells for at least a solid 14 days, or until their umbilicus starts shrinking. Some will not leave them entirely but will turn around inside them and eat the albumen and part of the shells. Almost all will nibble on them to one degree or another.

 

[Mjdeisher]

Very interesting! Makes me wonder how much genetics play into how much each hatchling can withstand and how much blockage each can pass. I would bet that the genetically strong are also able to pass the substrate more than the others. How old were the parents, had they produced that year already, were they slow growers? It's obviously not really possible to know all the details, but just an interesting thought. What makes one hatchling able to pass the blockage and others not?

Awesome research though Tom! You definitely think like a scientist!

 

[Tom]

I don't think genetics plays as much of a part as physics.

 

[yagyujubei]

Do sulcata hatchlings routinely start eating immediately after they hatch?

 

[Tom]

Do sulcata hatchlings routinely start eating immediately after they hatch?

Mine always have. I discovered this on my very first batch. I was under the mistaken impression that like many snakes and lizards, a recently hatched tortoise does not need or want to eat for a couple of weeks since it is still absorbing and getting nutrition from the yolk sac. I put my first hatchlings into a plastic shoe box on some damp paper towels as was recommended to me to help prevent any problems with the yolk sac drying out, tearing or adhering to anything, and the very first day they were nibbling on the paper towel. I threw in some greens and sure enough they ate them right up even with big yolk sacs protruding from their bellies. One member here won't use paper towels for this reason and uses clean washcloths or dishtowels instead. I find that with the greens and their egg shells, they don't eat the paper towels.

 

[yagyujubei]

What about hatchling leopards? Same thing? My box turtles usually take about three weeks before they will eat anything.

Do sulcata hatchlings routinely start eating immediately after they hatch?

Mine always have. I discovered this on my very first batch. I was under the mistaken impression that like many snakes and lizards, a recently hatched tortoise does not need or want to eat for a couple of weeks since it is still absorbing and getting nutrition from the yolk sac. I put my first hatchlings into a plastic shoe box on some damp paper towels as was recommended to me to help prevent any problems with the yolk sac drying out, tearing or adhering to anything, and the very first day they were nibbling on the paper towel. I threw in some greens and sure enough they ate them right up even with big yolk sacs protruding from their bellies. One member here won't use paper towels for this reason and uses clean washcloths or dishtowels instead. I find that with the greens and their egg shells, they don't eat the paper towels.

 

[Neal]

It takes about a week or two before leopards start eating. The earliest I have seen a leopard eat is 3 days after completely hatching.

 

[TylerStewart]

A friend of mine asked me to comment on this thread

With our sulcatas, I generally leave them in the incubator (in the vermiculite) for at least a few days before removing them. Being in the dark, they sit still and absorb their bellies, where if I take them out, they start running around, dragging this often massive umbilical around (sometimes tearing it on their own feet or each other). I don't have the space (or reason) to house them individually for a week, so I just leave them in the incubator. When I empty the sulcata incubator, I put them immediately in the bath tub and dribble the shower on a low setting so it kinda just splashes on them, and I leave them there literally for 3-5 hours. It cleans them very well and hydrates them fully (pic attached). I can't say I've ever noticed vermiculite in their early droppings, but I can say that the huge majority of them are with me at least several months before they sell, and we lose much less than 1% of baby sulcatas that are here with us (where if impaction was a common thing if they were left in the incubator, you would think we'd be losing much more in the first months with us). I think there's more to the argument that they aren't being hydrated properly in their early weeks leading to failures down the road whether it's liver or kidney or something else deteriorating; moreso than the argument that they're impacted on vermiculite.

On a second note, I often dig up "in ground" nests and find egg shells. I can't say I've ever pieced an egg back together and that none was eaten, but it certainly wasn't completely gone. I wouldn't be surprised if they munch on it while in the ground, as well as the mom's dropping (the mother pooping on top of the nest seems to happen with sulcatas more than other species). We dug up several in ground nests this year (Greeks, Hermanns, leopards, redfoots, yellowfoots, etc) and I can't think of one that didn't have any egg shells in it, sometimes also a baby or two that didn't get out with the group. Sulcatas we had no babies out of the ground this year, I guess/think I just didn't miss nests (last year we got 100 out of the ground). I almost fell asleep waiting for a leopard to finish laying eggs 2 nights ago and she didn't defecate on top of the eggs before filling it in.

 

[Tom]

So Ty Ty are you saying you think its a combination of eating vermiculite AND dehydration? Maybe yours pass any ingested substrate because of the long soaks and good hydration?

Got any theories about why five of mine are doing great, five are mediocre and 4 didn't do so well? When 6 out of 6 of MY babies right next door in the same enclosure are all doing as perfectly as can be? Got any ideas about why Dean had nearly the exact same ratio as I did with the exact same symptoms?

 

[Levi the Leopard]

Having a necropsy done was a smart decision. It gave you facts to use instead of just guesses.

Thanks for sharing this Tom.

 

[TylerStewart]

So Ty Ty are you saying you think its a combination of eating vermiculite AND dehydration? Maybe yours pass any ingested substrate because of the long soaks and good hydration?

Got any theories about why five of mine are doing great, five are mediocre and 4 didn't do so well? When 6 out of 6 of MY babies right next door in the same enclosure are all doing as perfectly as can be? Got any ideas about why Dean had nearly the exact same ratio as I did with the exact same symptoms?

Unfortunately, I don't know why some of yours are doing great and others aren't.... I'm just saying that I don't see a problem with impaction on vermiculite, and mine are left in it for their first 4-7 days from the time the egg cracks. Maybe the initial "flush" I do on them helps soften things up in there, I'm not sure, but we haven't lost a single baby sulcata this year (most of which are now a few months old). We had a few hundred of them this year, all left in the vermiculite early on to absorb their bellies. I know when raising other species, I've had one or two crash for no apparent reason within their first year, all were housed with their siblings who went on to do great. A friend of mine has similar things happen occasionally.... I hate to assume it's just Mother Nature calling them back, but it may be as simple as that. It could all come back to the mom of that particular clutch not having quite enough of this mineral or that vitamin. Some groups of babies seem to just do better than others for whatever reason, all else being the same. I don't usually hold on to sulcatas for very long (no plans to raise up babies), but we do raise many other species for use as future breeders, and some groups grow much faster than others, more bold than others etc.

Got any ideas about why Dean had nearly the exact same ratio as I did with the exact same symptoms?

If they all came from the same source, it makes sense that they came with whatever the "problem" was, but doesn't really pinpoint the problem.

 

[mightymizz]

Very interesting read so far! Thanks to all who have contributed, and thanks Tom for sharing about the tests.

 

[Tom]

So Ty Ty are you saying you think its a combination of eating vermiculite AND dehydration? Maybe yours pass any ingested substrate because of the long soaks and good hydration?

Got any theories about why five of mine are doing great, five are mediocre and 4 didn't do so well? When 6 out of 6 of MY babies right next door in the same enclosure are all doing as perfectly as can be? Got any ideas about why Dean had nearly the exact same ratio as I did with the exact same symptoms?

Unfortunately, I don't know why some of yours are doing great and others aren't.... I'm just saying that I don't see a problem with impaction on vermiculite, and mine are left in it for their first 4-7 days from the time the egg cracks. Maybe the initial "flush" I do on them helps soften things up in there, I'm not sure, but we haven't lost a single baby sulcata this year (most of which are now a few months old). We had a few hundred of them this year, all left in the vermiculite early on to absorb their bellies. I know when raising other species, I've had one or two crash for no apparent reason within their first year, all were housed with their siblings who went on to do great. A friend of mine has similar things happen occasionally.... I hate to assume it's just Mother Nature calling them back, but it may be as simple as that. It could all come back to the mom of that particular clutch not having quite enough of this mineral or that vitamin. Some groups of babies seem to just do better than others for whatever reason, all else being the same. I don't usually hold on to sulcatas for very long (no plans to raise up babies), but we do raise many other species for use as future breeders, and some groups grow much faster than others, more bold than others etc.

Got any ideas about why Dean had nearly the exact same ratio as I did with the exact same symptoms?

If they all came from the same source, it makes sense that they came with whatever the "problem" was, but doesn't really pinpoint the problem.

My results from the eggs out of my adults are the same as yours, but I think you already knew that. That is why this is such a shock to me. It appears that whatever you are doing works, and it appears that whatever I am doing works, but whatever was done for the first two or three weeks with this batch that I bought is not working for some of them. The 20 babies are all supposed to be selected from several clutches, so several different parents. Granted 20 babies is not enough to conclusively say anything, but the ones that are failing ARE all blocked up with vermiculite. For whatever reason yours are able to pass it, or don't eat it. Mine eat some of it, but they are only on vermiculite a short time, and they all pass what little they have ingested in their first bowel movements, so not an issue for mine. But for whatever reason, it apparently IS an issue for about 2/3 of the 20 two week old babies that I purchased. 7 of the 20 are doing fantastically, don't forget. My 5 big ones are the nicest looking sulcatas I have ever raised and super healthy in every way.

Also worth noting: As soon as mine hatch I remove them and put groups of 6 of them into shoe boxes or spring mix tubs with damp paper towels, some greens and their shells. They stay in there for about a week while their yolk sacs absorb. I have never had a single incident of a damaged yolk sac from the container or any of the other babies nails, or anything else.