Hatchling Hermans stopped eating, red spots on shell

HighlanderLC

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Hi new Tort Mom & Dad here! We have had Magni for about 4 months (he/she was a Chrostmas baby). For the first few months he has been pretty good with a few adjustments to heat, use of the hide etc. all things the breeder said were within normal range. He would eat about every 2-3 days, drink every day while we soaked him, and pooped about once a week. In the last two weeks he has become lethargic, not wanting to eat, drinking sporadically, and the last time he pooped was 3-4 days ago. Today while giving him his bath I noticed his belly is kinda more swishy than I would think appropriate (nervous mom but have done lots of research), and also some red spots along the outside scoots.
We have him on the Missouri pellet diet, with herbal hay, and a variety of greens (which he has not been fond of), and the succulents in his enclosure were all approved of by his breeder. We have a basking bulb thermostat set at 90-102, not going lower than 85 at night. He also has a big UV lamp. We have tried to up the humidity in the enclosure and bought some calcium to try and give him, but it's not helpful unless he will eat it. :(
I'm starting to become very conserned and we have started giving him the baby food carrot/water soak so that at least he is getting something into his system.
Thoughts?
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HermanniChris

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Unfortunely glass tanks aren't suitable for tortoises usually as they cause a constant greenhouse effect resulting in rapid dehydration. Have you read my care sheet pinned to the top of this forum? This is one of the reasons why I recommend Rubbermaid tubs instead of tanks.
Your tortoise is getting red flushed spots and is most likely very soft to touch because he is sadly failing. I absolutely hate to bring the bad news but they commonly do not survive this at such a young age. I would suggest a trip to a vet but most vets are not trained in chelonian care nor are they equipped to save a fragile hatchling and the trip alone could cause it severe stress. It may even die during transport.

The tortoise may simply be a victim of failure to thrive as a form of natural selection to some extent as well.

Occasionally we see babies go down hill for no apparent reason but in more than 2 decades of breeding Hermann's, I can tell you that specifics within a habitat often cause this very situation.

I'm so sorry that it looks like the worst case scenario but doing away with the glass tank would be your first step toward success in the future.

Lastly, your nighttime temp is way way too hot. Hermann's tortoises need a nighttime cool down even as babies. Temps in the 60s are best but they can go as low as the low 50s. I wouldn't recommend a nighttime temperature of any higher than 70.

Just because they are reptiles does not mean they need constant, overbearing heat. They are temperate dwelling animals which need to be able to select where they want to be and what they want to feel. Nighttime is a relief for them in nature as the intense sun releases its unforgiving grip for several hours as they rest.

If you haven't already, please give the care sheet a thorough read and follow it if you can.
 

tortoiseplanet

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Chris is right. Although, I've never had a Herman's tortoise, you should try feeding them romaine lettuce if you haven't because my baby Sulcata loves eats that over any other food. Hope you best luck!!❤️
 

HighlanderLC

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Unfortunely glass tanks aren't suitable for tortoises usually as they cause a constant greenhouse effect resulting in rapid dehydration. Have you read my care sheet pinned to the top of this forum? This is one of the reasons why I recommend Rubbermaid tubs instead of tanks.
Your tortoise is getting red flushed spots and is most likely very soft to touch because he is sadly failing. I absolutely hate to bring the bad news but they commonly do not survive this at such a young age. I would suggest a trip to a vet but most vets are not trained in chelonian care nor are they equipped to save a fragile hatchling and the trip alone could cause it severe stress. It may even die during transport.

The tortoise may simply be a victim of failure to thrive as a form of natural selection to some extent as well.

Occasionally we see babies go down hill for no apparent reason but in more than 2 decades of breeding Hermann's, I can tell you that specifics within a habitat often cause this very situation.

I'm so sorry that it looks like the worst case scenario but doing away with the glass tank would be your first step toward success in the future.

Lastly, your nighttime temp is way way too hot. Hermann's tortoises need a nighttime cool down even as babies. Temps in the 60s are best but they can go as low as the low 50s. I wouldn't recommend a nighttime temperature of any higher than 70.

Just because they are reptiles does not mean they need constant, overbearing heat. They are temperate dwelling animals which need to be able to select where they want to be and what they want to feel. Nighttime is a relief for them in nature as the intense sun releases its unforgiving grip for several hours as they rest.

If you haven't already, please give the care sheet a thorough read and follow it if you can.


Hi there, Dad here, thank you so much for your kind words. Here's some clarification:

The glass terrarium is only 8" high with air holes at the bottom, right above the substrate. So it is short but very wide, with an open top. The breeder (Tyler from Tortoise supply) had approved, so we thought it fine.

About the night time temp, it was low 90s in the hot end and probly low 70s in the cool end. Magni usually stayed somewhere between, sometimes under the damp coconut shell.

Thank you again for your kind words and counsel. Are their any other things that could cause this disease?
 

leigti

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I might be wrong but it seems like your tortoise is way too small for four months old. How much did he way when you got him? And the fact that he was only eating every three or four days is also very worrisome. Should be eating every day.
What are you using to measure temperature? Temperature guns are pretty accurate but often the discs etc. that you get at the pet store are not. Were the heat and UV bulbs only 8 inches above your tortoise? It does sound like the temperatures were too high. Especially at night. Aquariums can work well for hatchlings, and if yours is only 8 inches high and has holes in it and is not covered it should not have gotten too hot in there unless your heat lamp was too big and too close.
 

HighlanderLC

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For temp control, we have device that connects to the heat lamp and turns it off when it gets too hot. We set it to 100 deg for the hottest part of the hot end during the day (our breeder told us that was fine). And the heat lamp is a little higher than the top of the terrarium.
 

Shaif

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I had a sick hatchling too. There is hope!

In my case the mercury vapor bulb was too concentrated. It was causing a rather narrow beam of uvb only in the central focal spot. My baby was too small to be in the intense focal spot for long, and I had a very similar situation. The plastron was thin as paper and carapace was spongy.

I listened to the helpful advice from the forum and switched to a fluorescent 12% uvb bulb and flood light for basking. I hand fed the baby 3 times per week. Turnip greens, opunta, and testudo mix. Try Mazuri too. It's good for adding some weight and vitamins. Mine refused it, but I tried it often. Daily soaks in shallow water-- I was afraid the baby was too weak for deeper soaks.

It was a slow, scary recovery, but it worked. I wish you and your baby the best. Sometimes they turn around!
 

HighlanderLC

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Mom here. Exotics Vet said we can do antibiotics and liquid calcium. Looked at the setup and said everything else looked good. Was afraid to do the blood work because so small and so soft, but is hopeful.
Any tips on how to open their mouths for oral injection?
Thank you all for your kindness, I was a wreak yesterday.
 

Kasia

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Mom here. Exotics Vet said we can do antibiotics and liquid calcium. Looked at the setup and said everything else looked good. Was afraid to do the blood work because so small and so soft, but is hopeful.
Any tips on how to open their mouths for oral injection?
Thank you all for your kindness, I was a wreak yesterday.
Grab his neck behind his head and try lifting top side of his mouth open. His very small. For lifting you can use something flat and thin but without sharp edges. Or just the tip of your finger. Blood on the shell means is very bad and very late. I keep mine fingers crossed for him. If you're not able to with open his mouth go back to the Vet and go for normal injections. They look worse but are simpler to do it yourself on a wiggling uncooperative baby.
 

HighlanderLC

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Thankyou so much everybody for your support and kind words. Magni passed away tonight. The vet said it was failure to thrive w/ possible infection. Thanks again guys we, appreciated the support.
 

Alicia Hoogstra

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Honestly if you decide to get another baby, I would HIGHLY recommend a breeder from the forum here!
 

tortdad

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Tyler from tortoise supply is a legit breeder and knows his stuff so I wouldn't say the failure to thrive was caused by the breeder.

More often than not we see failure to thrive because the breeder isn't taking proper care of them during their first few days/weeks.

Don't be afraid to get another one but I would get rid of that glass enclosure and build a different one. Also if you get another one get rid of the substrate and plants.... start over from scratch that way if it was sick that you don't get the new one sick.
 

tortdad

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HermanniChris, the guy who posted above about the care sheet, is the guy who wrote the care sheet for this species. Chris is also a legit breeder for this species and produces some of the most spectacular torts around. Hit his website up when you feel ready for another.

http://www.gardenstatetortoise.com
 

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