Having more than one Cherryhead or Redfoot

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Candy

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Just wanted to know people's thoughts on keeping multiple Redfoots (or Cherryheads with Redfoot's) together. Do any of you do this? Do you find that they need the company or maybe that they like being by themselves? If you do have multiple tortoises together do you find that the males fight? I'm just thinking of Dale being lonely in the winter and ever since Danny had put up his Redfoots for sale I've been tempted to get another one. I was thinking of getting him a male just for company or a friend. When I first saw him he was with 3 other tortoises and I wonder sometimes if he misses that. I didn't think that I wanted a female Cherryhead because I didn't want eggs, but eventually Dale's going to want to mate and I'm thinking that it's not fair not to let him do what comes naturally. Anyway I'll wait to see your posts.
 

Yvonne G

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Naturally there's always the exception to every rule, but the rule is that tortoises are solitary animals and don't get "lonely" for others of their kind. They don't like to have to share the food or the best hiding place. Having said that, many of us DO keep more than one tortoise together. I have two males and one female Yellowfoot along with three babies that are now about 4 years old and almost ready to be put into the "big boy" pen. I have to separate the males because the larger one continually chases down the smaller one and pushes and shoves him. But the male and female get along just fine. You never know how two tortoises will get along together until you try it. Some make it ok and others just "vant to be alone!"

Yvonne
 

Candy

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Thanks Yvonne that does make sense. I saw you Yellowfoots when you posted them and they looked so good together. I was just thinking that if I got another tortoise I guess I should stick with the species that I have already (especially Redfoots) because they require special treatment that I already have learned from you guys on this site. :shy:
 

Madkins007

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In general- Cherry-head males are more aggressive towards each other than other Red-foot males are (one of many differences that makes many people think they are a different subspecies or species.) There are few reports of problems with multiple Red-foots, males or females or mixed, as long as you have room for them.

Red-foots are not 'social' in the scientific sense of having a pecking order, social structure, etc. other than the biggest usually gets what he wants. HOWEVER, Red-foots ARE gregarious. They are often found together in the wild at fruit falls, in hides, and in mating areas. They are known to leave scent trails and other unrelated Red-foots will follow the trails, etc.

They seem to do about as well with or without company, but as a keeper, it is more fun (and not a lot more work) to raise a small herd than just one... again as long as you have the space.
 

cdmay

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It is true that RFs can be kept alone with no problems. But having said that, they also do actively seek out others. I have a number of hide boxes located in my yard but usually there are at least two animals together each night. Sometimes there will even be three adults jammed into one hide box while another box, just like it is empty only a few feet away.
This same behavior has been observed in the wild by numerous authors (and friends of mine who report similar finds) who have found burrows and brush piles used over and over again by more than one adult RF at a time. This is in line with what Madkins007 stated above.
I have also kept individuals apart from the others from time to time for various reasons. When placed back with the group there is always some intense head bobbing (from both sexes) and the one that was isolated will ALWAYS follow the others around for some time afterwards. This leads me to think that in some way, they prefer to at least be 'around' others of their species.
 

Candy

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Madkins007 said:
In general- Cherry-head males are more aggressive towards each other than other Red-foot males are (one of many differences that makes many people think they are a different subspecies or species.) There are few reports of problems with multiple Red-foots, males or females or mixed, as long as you have room for them.

Red-foots are not 'social' in the scientific sense of having a pecking order, social structure, etc. other than the biggest usually gets what he wants. HOWEVER, Red-foots ARE gregarious. They are often found together in the wild at fruit falls, in hides, and in mating areas. They are known to leave scent trails and other unrelated Red-foots will follow the trails, etc.

They seem to do about as well with or without company, but as a keeper, it is more fun (and not a lot more work) to raise a small herd than just one... again as long as you have the space.

Thank you Madkins. That's very good information I always appreciate your input. :)

cdmay said:
It is true that RFs can be kept alone with no problems. But having said that, they also do actively seek out others. I have a number of hide boxes located in my yard but usually there are at least two animals together each night. Sometimes there will even be three adults jammed into one hide box while another box, just like it is empty only a few feet away.
This same behavior has been observed in the wild by numerous authors (and friends of mine who report similar finds) who have found burrows and brush piles used over and over again by more than one adult RF at a time. This is in line with what Madkins007 stated above.
I have also kept individuals apart from the others from time to time for various reasons. When placed back with the group there is always some intense head bobbing (from both sexes) and the one that was isolated will ALWAYS follow the others around for some time afterwards. This leads me to think that in some way, they prefer to at least be 'around' others of their species.

Having said that Carl do you (or Madkins) have Cherryheads and Redfoots together in an enclosure? Danny had said that he wouldn't put a female Redfoot with a male Cherryhead but it would be O.K. to put a male Redfoot with a male Cherryhead. I'm just trying to figure out what would be best and whether others have done this or are doing it now. Would it be better to get another Cherryhead or does it matter. And if Dale is almost 7 inches is he ready to breed with a Cherryhead female bigger or the same size? One more question....When you have two males and one female I take it they would fight over the female right?
 

cdmay

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Candy, I think what Dan was getting at was that you want to prevent the two different races of redfoot from interbreeding. As these are distinct forms it is best not to muddy the captive waters with hatchlings that are not readily identifiable as one type or another.
So you could house two females of different races or two males, without the worry of mixed breeding going on.
As for male aggression in cherryheads my experiences differ from some others. For example I know of a breeder who has large numbers of adults all grouped together. He reports no aggression.
But as I have only kept two or three males at any time, all I get is male to male aggression. In fact, I recently placed a young male that I have raised from a small juvenile in the main yard with my long term male named Moe. Moe showed immediate interest in the new male and likewise the younger male began sniffing and head bobbing like crazy. But after a few minutes of this the younger male rushed in on Moe with his mouth open and tried to take off Moe's face. The old male then began bashing the new male's shell in like he wanted to kill him. Had I not been right there to separate them somebody would have been hurt.
This has happened every single time I have placed two established captive male cherryheads together. Sometimes it might take a day or two, but sooner or later they are going at it.
I know that Mark and Allegra Fung-Lue have had mixed results with their cherryheads. They have numerous males and usually there is no fighting. But during the breeding season they do get males that are biting each other.
My guess is that cherryheads might be like African cichlids. You can keep a bare 50 gallon aquarium full of adults of mixed sexes and they don't kill each other. But try and keep two pairs in that same tank and throw in some rocks for them to establish territories on and you will likely end up with one fish. That one fish will have killed the other three.
So I would say that if you are only going to keep a couple of cherryheads, I would NOT recommend them being two males.
Lastly, at 7 inches Dale is just now becoming sexually mature. But a 7 inch female cherryhead is not ready to breed. Find a larger female. Sooner or later Dale will grow to be large enough to breed her.
 

Candy

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:p
cdmay said:
Candy, I think what Dan was getting at was that you want to prevent the two different races of redfoot from interbreeding. As these are distinct forms it is best not to muddy the captive waters with hatchlings that are not readily identifiable as one type or another.
So you could house two females of different races or two males, without the worry of mixed breeding going on.
As for male aggression in cherryheads my experiences differ from some others. For example I know of a breeder who has large numbers of adults all grouped together. He reports no aggression.
But as I have only kept two or three males at any time, all I get is male to male aggression. In fact, I recently placed a young male that I have raised from a small juvenile in the main yard with my long term male named Moe. Moe showed immediate interest in the new male and likewise the younger male began sniffing and head bobbing like crazy. But after a few minutes of this the younger male rushed in on Moe with his mouth open and tried to take off Moe's face. The old male then began bashing the new male's shell in like he wanted to kill him. Had I not been right there to separate them somebody would have been hurt.
This has happened every single time I have placed two established captive male cherryheads together. Sometimes it might take a day or two, but sooner or later they are going at it.
I know that Mark and Allegra Fung-Lue have had mixed results with their cherryheads. They have numerous males and usually there is no fighting. But during the breeding season they do get males that are biting each other.
My guess is that cherryheads might be like African cichlids. You can keep a bare 50 gallon aquarium full of adults of mixed sexes and they don't kill each other. But try and keep two pairs in that same tank and throw in some rocks for them to establish territories on and you will likely end up with one fish. That one fish will have killed the other three.
So I would say that if you are only going to keep a couple of cherryheads, I would NOT recommend them being two males.
Lastly, at 7 inches Dale is just now becoming sexually mature. But a 7 inch female cherryhead is not ready to breed. Find a larger female. Sooner or later Dale will grow to be large enough to breed her.

Thank you so much Carl that explains everything to me that I've been wondering about. Now do you have any larger Cherryhead females for sale for Dale? :p I will be looking for a female soon because I just think Dale could use the company. I actually don't know their mating season. I would think it would be in the spring, but I'm not sure or do they breed at anytime of year. So far I only am experienced at dogs and cats and cockatiels not tortoises.
 

DoctorCosmonaut

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I do remember reading (sorry I forgot where... I'll look for it) that groups of them were found deep in the Amazonian rain forest
 

Candy

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DoctorCosmonaut said:
I do remember reading (sorry I forgot where... I'll look for it) that groups of them were found deep in the Amazonian rain forest

I'd love for you to find that so I could read it also, thanks.
 

cdmay

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There are a few papers written that describe redfoots being found togther.
These are the northern types or the Chaco form and not cherryheads though.
The most complete study that I know if is Moskovits. I think the title is "The Behavior and Ecology of the two Amazonian Tortoises, Geochelone carbonaria and Geochelone denticulata, in Northwestern Brazil".
 

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cdmay said:
There are a few papers written that describe redfoots being found togther.
These are the northern types or the Chaco form and not cherryheads though.
The most complete study that I know if is Moskovits. I think the title is "The Behavior and Ecology of the two Amazonian Tortoises, Geochelone carbonaria and Geochelone denticulata, in Northwestern Brazil".

We also have the field reports of the Vinke's- "The turtle and tortoise fauna of the central Chaco of Paraguay" (online at http://www.chelidae.com/pdf/vinke2001.pdf) and "An Unusual Survival Strategy of the Red-Footed Tortoise Geochelone carbonaria in the Chaco Boreal of Paraguay" (in Spanish at www.chaco-wildlife.org/de/about-us/articles.htm. If you Google it, it can translate it for you)

These might be of special interest to you since the Cherry-head (Brazilian red color morph) seems to be more closely related to the tortoises from the Grand Chaco area than they are to the Northern Red-foots- they share a mostly dark plastron, many habitat similarities, the tendency for the adult male to not have a wasp-waist, etc.
 

cdmay

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We also have the field reports of the Vinke's- "The turtle and tortoise fauna of the central Chaco of Paraguay" (online at http://www.chelidae.com/pdf/vinke2001.pdf) and "An Unusual Survival Strategy of the Red-Footed Tortoise Geochelone carbonaria in the Chaco Boreal of Paraguay" (in Spanish at www.chaco-wildlife.org/de/about-us/articles.htm. If you Google it, it can translate it for you)

Thanks. I have both of those in English as they were published---with color photos--in RADIATA magazine a couple of years ago.
 

Madkins007

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Actually CDMay- I meant that for Candy. I would bet that YOUR article library is bigger than mine (sniff, sniff:( )

Hmmm, maybe somewhere, somehow we could figure out a way to help each other fill in each other's libraries?
 

Candy

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Thank you Madkins and Carl. So what you're saying is that the Chaco is closely related to the Cherryhead more so than the Redfoot and that's why you gave me these sites am I right? Their habitat from what I was reading and looking at the pictures is not what I expected. I expected to see more of a rainforest not open land as the pictures show. Interesting. I still have to read some more I only scanned over it. Thanks for posting it for me to read.

Carl I don't think you read my post asking you if you had any female Cherryheads for sale old enough for Dale? Do you or do you know where I could get one? If not I might just have to wait till May or June of next year because it's getting to cold to ship them now.
 

cdmay

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Candy, no I don't have any females for sale. But they do appear from time to time.
 

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I'm somewhat surprised not to hear anyone mention flipping issues?? I keep mine together and seperate. I switch each other out occasionally amongst themselves, and personally have never experienced any aggression. But they flip each other over occasionally. They'll cross paths and the one that gets "t-boned" is the one that ends up on it's back.
 

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Flipping- I only have this happen rarely when they try to pass each other in tight spaces, such as crowding around the food dish (I usually spread the food out for enrichment and to prevent crowding, but that is hard to do in the old inside habitat.)

Candy- While there are not a lot of good studies on Cherry-heads in the field that I know of, there are two 'farms' in their range that keep them. The websites show some really interesting habitat.

- http://www.geochelone.com.br/usa/index.cfm (Check out the pics)
- http://www.carbonaria.com/index.html (not as much, but interesting)

The thing about both sites that really fascinates me is that they are showing Cherry-heads and making no special mention of them. On the 'characteristics' page of the first site, they mention that Red-foots come in two color forms- red and yellow (but different from the Yellow-foot.) The red form is called the Cherry-head in the US. In other words, we are making a big deal out of something they consider perfectly commonplace.

(Note- you'll quickly note that the English translation has a few quirks. For some odd reason, the term 'hoof' seems to be used for the shell.)
 

cdmay

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- Madkins007:
The thing about both sites that really fascinates me is that they are showing Cherry-heads and making no special mention of them. On the 'characteristics' page of the first site, they mention that Red-foots come in two color forms- red and yellow (but different from the Yellow-foot.) The red form is called the Cherry-head in the US. In other words, we are making a big deal out of something they consider perfectly commonplace.

Yes, this is true. It is also one of the reasons that most people now agree that the 'cherryhead' form of redfoot must be native to that region of Brazil since the locals don't seem to recognize that they are different from the RFs in other parts of Brazil.
 

-EJ

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What about the blood red headed ones that I believe come from Venezuela...


cdmay said:
- Madkins007:
The thing about both sites that really fascinates me is that they are showing Cherry-heads and making no special mention of them. On the 'characteristics' page of the first site, they mention that Red-foots come in two color forms- red and yellow (but different from the Yellow-foot.) The red form is called the Cherry-head in the US. In other words, we are making a big deal out of something they consider perfectly commonplace.

Yes, this is true. It is also one of the reasons that most people now agree that the 'cherryhead' form of redfoot must be native to that region of Brazil since the locals don't seem to recognize that they are different from the RFs in other parts of Brazil.
 
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