help-does my hermanns need to hibernate?

[matthoppy]

i need an experts advice, i have one hermann tortoise which i have had for 2 years i have been offered another one to go with mine but the previous owner has hibernated him for a few year, if i am keeping him in a viv do i need to continue hibernating him i would rather not help please
many thank
matt

 

[-EJ]

RE: help

Not an expert but I do have a strong opinion on this...

Tortoises hibernate in the wild because they have to in order to survive. Hibernation is a response to dealing with unfavorable conditions to survival.

If the conditions are favorable for survival... they don't hibernate.

Answering your question more to the point... if you provide conditions which the tortoise 'likes'... it will not nor will need to hibernate.

i need an experts advice, i have one hermann tortoise which i have had for 2 years i have been offered another one to go with mine but the previous owner has hibernated him for a few year, if i am keeping him in a viv do i need to continue hibernating him i would rather not help please
many thank
matt

 

[Isa]

If you want to keep your tortoise indoor, I would not hibernate him. I have 2 tortoises, they spend the winter inside and I do not let them hibernate. Their temps are the same all year long (exept in the summer and they are outside).

 

[Tortoise]

Hi
My experience was that it is supposed to be healthier for them to hibernate. I always did with my Hermanns and he always faired very well with it. No big deal to do it and he was sleeping when the worst veggies were available in the store over the long winter here. Also heard it helps stop them grow too fast too as they are resting for 2-3 mths. They were allowed to lose no more than 10% body weight.

I think I would personally(if they are a healthy weight and in full health) because it worked and its interesting too to hear that some people are not hibernating and are happy with that too.

I guess it comes down to a personal choice.
I never heard of them not hibernating-perhaps this is a North American trend?

In the UK only sick or very tiny Hermanns and Greeks were kept from hibernating.

---

Hi
My experience was that it is supposed to be healthier for them to hibernate. I always did with my Hermanns and he always faired very well with it. No big deal to do it and he was sleeping when the worst veggies were available in the store over the long winter here. Also heard it helps stop them grow too fast too as they are resting for 2-3 mths. They were allowed to lose no more than 10% body weight.

I think I would personally(if they are a healthy weight and in full health) because it worked and its interesting too to hear that some people are not hibernating and are happy with that too.

I guess it comes down to a personal choice.
I never heard of them not hibernating-perhaps this is a North American trend?

In the UK only sick or very tiny Hermanns and Greeks were kept from hibernating.

We hibernated him in the cold room about 4-5 degrees, checked on him periodically weighed him and popped him back to bed until it was time to wake up. He had a warm bath and within an hour or two was having a good meal.

 

[-EJ]

There is nothing to suggest that hibernation is healthy for a tortoise. Hibernation is natures last ditch effort to help the tortoise survive extreme adverse conditions.

Hibernation actually stresses the tortoise sometimes to the point of death. This is why it is recommended that sick and fragile tortoises are not hibernated.

Bottom line... hibernation is not a necessity.

 

[Tortoise]

That is interesting but why would European owners(experienced chelonia keepers etc) all do this if it was detrimental to their health. I know Hermanns in their 70's and they are still actively breeding too.

Thanks for sharing your experiences. I will continue to read up up on this as I am totally open to new ideas and respectful of others opinions too.
If its in the animals best interest the I might reconsider-this is new to me.

Do you have any recommendations on where I can find solid information , articles on not hibernating-Thanks

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

Some box turtles and tortoises die during brumation in the wild, and captive chelonians do well even without brumating. However, as long as they are healthy enough to brumate, this period of rest does appear to be beneficial to them. Isn't it true that boxies and tortoises from the temperate zone are more likely to mate in the spring if they have brumated over the winter? That has been my experience with box turtles, and I have read the same about Testudo species, although other TFO members have said that their Mediterranean tortoises have bred without brumating.

 

[-EJ]

Mindset. In Europe it is costly and difficult to overwinter chelonians. Also... a good number of chelonian keepers... usually the more vocal are kind of anal about keeping chelonians. They try their best to keep the animals as they live in the wild. That's not a bad thing but those that do try to present that this is a necessity... it is not.

I'm not saying... do not hibernate. I'm saying that it is not necessary and there are risks. Overwintering also requires extra effort in certain climates and if the proper conditions are not met the animal will be inclined to hibernate.

That is interesting but why would European owners(experienced chelonia keepers etc) all do this if it was detrimental to their health. I know Hermanns in their 70's and they are still actively breeding too.

Thanks for sharing your experiences. I will continue to read up up on this as I am totally open to new ideas and respectful of others opinions too.
If its in the animals best interest the I might reconsider-this is new to me.

Do you have any recommendations on where I can find solid information , articles on not hibernating-Thanks

---

It does seem to serve as a que for breeding. That does not imply that it is good for the health of the individual.

Box turtles and other chelonians in the southern states and mexico might brumate for very short periods or not at all if the climate warrants it.

Some box turtles and tortoises die during brumation in the wild, and captive chelonians do well even without brumating. However, as long as they are healthy enough to brumate, this period of rest does appear to be beneficial to them. Isn't it true that boxies and tortoises from the temperate zone are more likely to mate in the spring if they have brumated over the winter? That has been my experience with box turtles, and I have read the same about Testudo species, although other TFO members have said that their Mediterranean tortoises have bred without brumating.

 

[Yvonne G]

Just an anecdote on the subject:

I received a whole breeding group of Russian tortoises from someone in San Diego, CA because the weather was not cold enough for the tortoises to hibernate. The owner felt they would do better in an area with colder winters. However, the tortoises were alive and well, and lived for several years in SoCal with no problems.

 

[onarock]

Is breeding beneficial to the individual tortoise? Is there health benefits? It was my interpritation from the OP that he/she was asking this question more out of concern for the individual animal and not the species in a whole. Would love to read anything on brumation and tortoises as it relates to health.

Some box turtles and tortoises die during brumation in the wild, and captive chelonians do well even without brumating. However, as long as they are healthy enough to brumate, this period of rest does appear to be beneficial to them. Isn't it true that boxies and tortoises from the temperate zone are more likely to mate in the spring if they have brumated over the winter? That has been my experience with box turtles, and I have read the same about Testudo species, although other TFO members have said that their Mediterranean tortoises have bred without brumating.

 

[Tortoise]

Is breeding beneficial to the individual tortoise? Is there health benefits? It was my interpritation from the OP that he/she was asking this question more out of concern for the individual animal and not the species in a whole. Would love to read anything on brumation and tortoises as it relates to health.

Some box turtles and tortoises die during brumation in the wild, and captive chelonians do well even without brumating. However, as long as they are healthy enough to brumate, this period of rest does appear to be beneficial to them. Isn't it true that boxies and tortoises from the temperate zone are more likely to mate in the spring if they have brumated over the winter? That has been my experience with box turtles, and I have read the same about Testudo species, although other TFO members have said that their Mediterranean tortoises have bred without brumating.

In Europe it is costly and difficult to overwinter chelonians. Also... a good number of chelonian keepers...

In The UK the chelonia keepers are doing what they believe to be the best for their tortoises the fact that it is easier in terms of food and management is secondary.
You may form what opinions you like and generalize about European tortoise keepers but have no time for that.

My focus is on chelonia care- whatever suits them best with the knowledge available to us.
My experience has been with dedicated chelonia enthusiasts with many many years of experience behind them.Who am I to argue?
I will continue to research as I am always learning with these animals.
I guess this is a debatable topic.

 

[-EJ]

That's your opinion and it it well taken. I've noticed that most of the keepers in the UK that hibernate their animals do so because it is 'natural' and they believe that 'natural' is better for the animal... pretty simple. Not many seem to understand why they hibernate.

As to the us and them mentality... there are identical keepers the world over with the same mindset.

Ironicly... easier, cheaper and getting a break always seems to work its way into a hibernation conversation.

Bottom line... not healthier for the tortoise.

If you stating that you 'guess' this is a debatable topic... you haven't been keeping or networking chelonians for very long. (I know... sounds arrogant but to the point)(sorry if I ruffled any feathers.)

In Europe it is costly and difficult to overwinter chelonians. Also... a good number of chelonian keepers...

In The UK the chelonia keepers are doing what they believe to be the best for their tortoises the fact that it is easier in terms of food and management is secondary.
You may form what opinions you like and generalize about European tortoise keepers but have no time for that.

My focus is on chelonia care- whatever suits them best with the knowledge available to us.
My experience has been with dedicated chelonia enthusiasts with many many years of experience behind them.Who am I to argue?
I will continue to research as I am always learning with these animals.
I guess this is a debatable topic.

 

[bettinge]

That's your opinion and it it well taken. I've noticed that most of the keepers in the UK that hibernate their animals do so because it is 'natural' and they believe that 'natural' is better for the animal... pretty simple. Not many seem to understand why they hibernate.

As to the us and them mentality... there are identical keepers the world over with the same mindset.

Ironicly... easier, cheaper and getting a break always seems to work its way into a hibernation conversation.

Bottom line... not healthier for the tortoise.

If you stating that you 'guess' this is a debatable topic... you haven't been keeping or networking chelonians for very long. (I know... sounds arrogant but to the point)(sorry if I ruffled any feathers.)

In Europe it is costly and difficult to overwinter chelonians. Also... a good number of chelonian keepers...

In The UK the chelonia keepers are doing what they believe to be the best for their tortoises the fact that it is easier in terms of food and management is secondary.
You may form what opinions you like and generalize about European tortoise keepers but have no time for that.

My focus is on chelonia care- whatever suits them best with the knowledge available to us.
My experience has been with dedicated chelonia enthusiasts with many many years of experience behind them.Who am I to argue?
I will continue to research as I am always learning with these animals.
I guess this is a debatable topic.

-Ej's back! Good to see you.......so to speak!

 

[Tortoise]

That's your opinion and it it well taken. I've noticed that most of the keepers in the UK that hibernate their animals do so because it is 'natural' and they believe that 'natural' is better for the animal... pretty simple. Not many seem to understand why they hibernate.

As to the us and them mentality... there are identical keepers the world over with the same mindset.

Ironicly... easier, cheaper and getting a break always seems to work its way into a hibernation conversation.

Bottom line... not healthier for the tortoise.

If you stating that you 'guess' this is a debatable topic... you haven't been keeping or networking chelonians for very long. (I know... sounds arrogant but to the point)(sorry if I ruffled any feathers.)

In Europe it is costly and difficult to overwinter chelonians. Also... a good number of chelonian keepers...

In The UK the chelonia keepers are doing what they believe to be the best for their tortoises the fact that it is easier in terms of food and management is secondary.
You may form what opinions you like and generalize about European tortoise keepers but have no time for that.

My focus is on chelonia care- whatever suits them best with the knowledge available to us.
My experience has been with dedicated chelonia enthusiasts with many many years of experience behind them.Who am I to argue?
I will continue to research as I am always learning with these animals.
I guess this is a debatable topic.

I like to the point-you won't ruffle my feathers!
My time with chelonians is not significant to this topic.I have had the privilege of growing up on one continent(with its own group of well informed so called experts) and moving to another-this opens your mind and this is why I don't assume i know everything I need to know and seek out forums like this to basically, hopefully -learn.Information is changing and its important to be open to different ideas.
My 16/17 yrs of chelonia keeping maybe insignificant to you but I don't think anyone should be judging anyone else on that in any case do you?
Perhaps many of us choose not to network due to the reasons of for example that they encounter so called experts who are judgmental towards others who do not do the same or are different.
I expect there are hundreds of people on this forum with varying ways of raising their animals, how lucky we are to have each other as a resource.

I welcome friendly debate over these chelonia issues as that is how we collectively,we provide the best environments we can for the animals in our care.

I don't think its fair to assume one would hibernate their animals for convenience-done correctly the hibernation process is not the easy way it takes weeks of preparation, constant monitoring and a very careful temperature constant to be safe.
I actually think it would be more straight forward to just carry on and allow them to stay active.
I'm not sure what you gain from implying such?

This hibernation debate has sparked a new topic of research for me personally. Thanks for your valued opinion, I may change my methods accordingly if it feels like the right thing to do.

 

[John]

Interesting topic, My 2 cents.....I think this plays into the thinking of alot of reptile keepers past and present and I think Ed has touched on it already but I'll say it anyway, Just because an animal can endure something does not mean it is needed to ensure the health or survival of said animal, Another example of this can be found in animals that dwell in arid regions and experience a rainy and a dry season, It is my belief that said animal would thrive in an inbetween moderate environment as a captive, opposed to one or the other extreme, And an animal in a cold climate must hibernate to survive the cold, It does not need it to be cold to survive, And very likely would not hibernate if its natural climate were to change.....adaptation

 

[GBtortoises]

I have to agree is Ed (-EJ). Tortoises in the wild, particularly Nothern Mediterranean Testudo species have evolved to hibernate in order to escape long periods of cold weather and lack of food during this time-winter. That is absolutely the only known reason for them to hibernate. Remove that adversity and they have no natural reason to have to hibernate.

For years I used to hibernate all of my Northern Mediterranean species. I am no currently doing both. Some of my tortoises live outdoors year round, hibernating "naturally" in their outdoor enclosures, with some insulation assistance from me. Many others of mine are overwintered indoors. In terms of health and activity I have seen no difference whatsoever between those that are hibernated and those that are overwintered. In terms of breeding, those that are hibernated have a more consistent breeding schedule, always producing the seasons first clutches of eggs throughout mid June into early July. Whereas my tortoises that have been overwintered seem to nest more sporadically throughout the summer. The only thing that I can see hibernation being beneficial to the tortoise for is to establish and maintain seasonal schedules. For me their hibernation is beneficial in that it gives me some "relief" in terms of having to care for less tortoises throughtout the winter indoors which in turn actually allows me to keep more tortoises overall.

 

[Tortoise]

Yes I agree
I was talking to a lady with many years of tort experience recently and asked her if she thought that tortoises adapted to their environments in captivity, for example temperature ideals.

She explained that seeing as tortoises have remained unchanged in evolutionary terms over millions of years, they are hard wired to prefer their natural environmental temps.(Even though they have never been in their country of origin before)
So in a colder climate, the tropical species can suffer if due care isn't taken to supply an accurate temperature closely resembling what they would experience in the wild.

So I suppose she was implying that we have to respect their climatic origins as best we can.Its just tricky deciding what factors are important and what is not important to their well being.

So not hibernating(in many people's opinions on this forum) may be giving the tortoise an advantage and therefore hopefully not detrimental to their health.

Anyone know of any articles supporting "Not Hibernating and the health benefits to that?"

This is an interesting topic as it seems especially in different parts of the world both methods are working very well.

---

I have to agree is Ed (-EJ). Tortoises in the wild, particularly Nothern Mediterranean Testudo species have evolved to hibernate in order to escape long periods of cold weather and lack of food during this time-winter. That is absolutely the only known reason for them to hibernate. Remove that adversity and they have no natural reason to have to hibernate.

For years I used to hibernate all of my Northern Mediterranean species. I am no currently doing both. Some of my tortoises live outdoors year round, hibernating "naturally" in their outdoor enclosures, with some insulation assistance from me. Many others of mine are overwintered indoors. In terms of health and activity I have seen no difference whatsoever between those that are hibernated and those that are overwintered. In terms of breeding, those that are hibernated have a more consistent breeding schedule, always producing the seasons first clutches of eggs throughout mid June into early July. Whereas my tortoises that have been overwintered seem to nest more sporadically throughout the summer. The only thing that I can see hibernation being beneficial to the tortoise for is to establish and maintain seasonal schedules. For me their hibernation is beneficial in that it gives me some "relief" in terms of having to care for less tortoises throughtout the winter indoors which in turn actually allows me to keep more tortoises overall.

Thanks Gary
I was wondering what your opinion was and hoping you would reply too!

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

Is breeding beneficial to the individual tortoise? Is there health benefits? It was my interpritation from the OP that he/she was asking this question more out of concern for the individual animal and not the species in a whole. Would love to read anything on brumation and tortoises as it relates to health.

I'm not talking about group selection. Being able to breed is part of health too, you know.

 

[onarock]

So, its beneficial because it leads to breeding and breeding is healthy. O.K. Thanks

Is breeding beneficial to the individual tortoise? Is there health benefits? It was my interpritation from the OP that he/she was asking this question more out of concern for the individual animal and not the species in a whole. Would love to read anything on brumation and tortoises as it relates to health.

I'm not talking about group selection. Being able to breed is part of health too, you know.

---

Anyone know of any articles supporting "Not Hibernating and the health benefits to that?"

Sounded like one of the posters on this thread had such material, but now I'm begining to wonder.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

I've kept tortoises and box turtles since 1973 and have never hibernated any of them...one (my first Hermann's) was a pet for about 50 years (30 or so w/ my grandfather, 19 w/ me) and never hibernated.

Absolutely optional.