help-does my hermanns need to hibernate?

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-EJ

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Someone mentioned... Who hibernates for convenience... I do. It's not really for convenience but out of necessity.

Those tortoises I keep outdoors I do not have room for them indoors... yet.

So... I cool them down to about 40 or 50 degrees F and place them in dark rooms for the winter months.

The species... I've said this before... wait for it... wait for it...

Aldabras, Redfoots, Leopards and Sulcatas.

I don't recommend or suggest that anyone try this at home.

The point... the animals adapt. They are reptiles totally dependent on temperature.
 

John

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LOL, Blastfemy, ed. Would that be cosidered outside of the box? I have heard its dark and dangerous out there:D
 

-EJ

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I actually learned about this from keepers... who 'didn't have a clue'.

squamata said:
LOL, Blastfemy, ed. Would that be cosidered outside of the box? I have heard its dark and dangerous out there:D
 

John

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-EJ said:
I actually learned about this from keepers... who 'didn't have a clue'.

squamata said:
LOL, Blastfemy, ed. Would that be cosidered outside of the box? I have heard its dark and dangerous out there:D

Well.........A great many things in this world were stummbled upon by accident, why should herps be any different.:)
 
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stells

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I have to just say... not everyone in the UK hibernates their tortoises...

I don't even think the people that do are in the majority... there are alot more of us who overwinter...

Just thought i would point that out :D

Tortoise said:
onarock said:
Is breeding beneficial to the individual tortoise? Is there health benefits? It was my interpritation from the OP that he/she was asking this question more out of concern for the individual animal and not the species in a whole. Would love to read anything on brumation and tortoises as it relates to health.

GeoTerraTestudo said:
Some box turtles and tortoises die during brumation in the wild, and captive chelonians do well even without brumating. However, as long as they are healthy enough to brumate, this period of rest does appear to be beneficial to them. Isn't it true that boxies and tortoises from the temperate zone are more likely to mate in the spring if they have brumated over the winter? That has been my experience with box turtles, and I have read the same about Testudo species, although other TFO members have said that their Mediterranean tortoises have bred without brumating.

In Europe it is costly and difficult to overwinter chelonians. Also... a good number of chelonian keepers...

In The UK the chelonia keepers are doing what they believe to be the best for their tortoises the fact that it is easier in terms of food and management is secondary.
You may form what opinions you like and generalize about European tortoise keepers but have no time for that.

My focus is on chelonia care- whatever suits them best with the knowledge available to us.
My experience has been with dedicated chelonia enthusiasts with many many years of experience behind them.Who am I to argue?
I will continue to research as I am always learning with these animals.
I guess this is a debatable topic.
 

GeoTerraTestudo

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onarock said:
So, its beneficial because it leads to breeding and breeding is healthy. O.K. Thanks

You're welcome, and since you're being sarcastic, I guess the two following notions never occurred to you:

1) The reproductive system is part of the body, and if it is not functioning normally, then by definition there is a health problem. That's why people go to a doctor when they have infertility, a low libido, or erectile dysfunction instead of to a musician, mechanic, or caterer.

2) If an animal is not breeding, then the problem might be limited to the reproductive system, but it might also involve other systems as well, like the liver, kidneys, or adrenal glands. For this reason, a diminished sex drive could mean nothing, but it might mean something.

Some posters have also mentioned that wild temperate turtles may or may not brumate, depending on the climate. While that's true, I think that only applies to certain species or subspecies. For example, it's true that both the box turtle (Terrapene carolina) and the Greek tortoise (Testudo graeca) brumate in the colder parts of their respective ranges, but overwinter in the warmer parts. However, this is only part of the story, since they may be more predictable at the subspecies level. In the case of the box turtle, the three-toed (T. c. triunguis) is found in both the north and south, and may encounter a range of conditions. However, the Carolina box turtle (T. c. carolina) occupies more northern regions and usually brumates in the wild, while the Gulf coast box turtle (T. c. major) lives only in the Deep South and usually does not brumate. Similarly, the subspecies of the Greek tortoise that live along the Mediterranean coast or near the Sahara rarely brumate, but those that live farther north or farther away from the sea do brumate. What's more, those parts of the range that don't get cold enough to induce brumation still do get chilly enough to induce a short period of torpor. Then there are some species that seem to brumate throughout most of their range. The Russian tortoise comes from a seasonally cold climate and brumates every year.

I say this not because I have all the answers - far from it. Maybe it's true that brumation (and aestivation) are simply things that wild animals have to put up with, and in captivity they would much rather not. However, if it's true that temperate zone turtles are less likely to breed when they haven't brumated, then this could mean that they need an annual rest period not only to get their gonads humming again, but maybe other organs and systems as well. I don't know, but it's certainly possible.
 

bcurtis

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Well here is my 2 cents worth also. I am in San Diego, 10 miles from the Mexican border and we have 10" of rainfall yearly and no snow where I am. My marginated and graeca hibernate outside in sleeping areas stuffed with hay. The russians physically dig into the soil in a protected area and overwinter there. I do not force anything to hibernate. My hermanns are out running around every day unless the weather really gets bad and then they are back out in a day or two running around again. They know more about what they need than I do. They also reproduce great without hibernating. Personally I would think that if a tortoise had the availability to be out in the sun and forage for food everyday it would be better than being stuck in a box in a corner of the garage or an empty referigerator and living off stored reserves. But I am lucky enough not to be in a climate that makes it necessary for me to have to make that hard decision. I can leave it up tothe tortoises. Both ways seem to work.
Bill
 

onarock

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Yup, those things never occured to me :). Thanks for the turtle info.

Does anyone know if its beneficial for hermanns tortoises to hibernate?

GeoTerraTestudo said:
onarock said:
So, its beneficial because it leads to breeding and breeding is healthy. O.K. Thanks

You're welcome, and since you're being sarcastic, I guess the two following notions never occurred to you:

1) The reproductive system is part of the body, and if it is not functioning normally, then by definition there is a health problem. That's why people go to a doctor when they have infertility, a low libido, or erectile dysfunction instead of to a musician, mechanic, or caterer.

2) If an animal is not breeding, then the problem might be limited to the reproductive system, but it might also involve other systems as well, like the liver, kidneys, or adrenal glands. For this reason, a diminished sex drive could mean nothing, but it might mean something.

Some posters have also mentioned that wild temperate turtles may or may not brumate, depending on the climate. While that's true, I think that only applies to certain species or subspecies. For example, it's true that both the box turtle (Terrapene carolina) and the Greek tortoise (Testudo graeca) brumate in the colder parts of their respective ranges, but overwinter in the warmer parts. However, this is only part of the story, since they may be more predictable at the subspecies level. In the case of the box turtle, the three-toed (T. c. triunguis) is found in both the north and south, and may encounter a range of conditions. However, the Carolina box turtle (T. c. carolina) occupies more northern regions and usually brumates in the wild, while the Gulf coast box turtle (T. c. major) lives only in the Deep South and usually does not brumate. Similarly, the subspecies of the Greek tortoise that live along the Mediterranean coast or near the Sahara rarely brumate, but those that live farther north or farther away from the sea do brumate. What's more, those parts of the range that don't get cold enough to induce brumation still do get chilly enough to induce a short period of torpor. Then there are some species that seem to brumate throughout most of their range. The Russian tortoise comes from a seasonally cold climate and brumates every year.

I say this not because I have all the answers - far from it. Maybe it's true that brumation (and aestivation) are simply things that wild animals have to put up with, and in captivity they would much rather not. However, if it's true that temperate zone turtles are less likely to breed when they haven't brumated, then this could mean that they need an annual rest period not only to get their gonads humming again, but maybe other organs and systems as well. I don't know, but it's certainly possible.
 

bcurtis

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There was one other thing that I forgot to mention. 90% of my hermann eggs are laid from Septeember to the end of March. I would assume this is true all along the southern states? If I forced them into hibernation I would physically change their natural tendencies in my location and weather conditions. I would have put them in a box and forced them to hibernate when they should be out reproducing. In other places where they are forced to hibernate or just choose to the tendencies to lay seem to be in the summer months. I would prefer that they be allowed to do what they feel is best for them.
I brought in a group of westerns last fall that I assume had been used to being hibernated. They went down for the winter on their own and came out this spring all refreshed. My question now would be will they continue to hibernate or will they slowly start staying up through the warmer winter months here in San Diego like my Dalmatians and boettgeri do and will they eventually change their laying season? Only time will tell.
Bill
 
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