Help for a Newbie

[Steadg]

Hi Everyone

Great forum - first post and after some help. Apologies for the length of the post

My son wanted a tortoise - so after a lot of research we decided on a pair of Horsefields - one each so we can do this together.

Went to what appeared to be a great shop - bough a tortoise table - with all accessories - All in one basking light - substrate etc. Got home set it all up and ran the light for a week. Also bought the tortoises from them UK captive bred - around 6 months old. (No paperwork with Horsefields)

Picked the tortoises up the week after and they were put in small plastic boxes with tissue paper lining. Drove them three hours home and then got them into their new enclosure. 30 degrees C in the basking area. Sleeping area was cooler at around 15C. I bought a heat mat to increase the temperature there. Guys were eating well, very mobile. Then it all turned bad. Both started wheezing, squeaking and blowing bubbles through their nose - became very listless and stopped eating. Spent all day just sleeping in a corner digging into the substrate. Gave them a warm bath with baby carrot food added. They perked up. Next day they were the same - bubbles blowing etc. Took them straight to a tortoise specialist.

She said the first thing was they were well bred and appeared strong great shells - also probably closer to a year old. But they had a severe respiratory infection. They were given antibiotics injections and we have two further injections to give them at home this week. She also said they had the worst parasite infection she had ever seen and gave them wormers etc to clear that. Also gave us some tonic to put in a bath for them twice a day. We discussed the setup we bought and she said firstly the tortoises were probably ill before we got them (slow metabolisms and it takes time for illness to surface) and secondly she didn’t like our set up. She said we also needed an infra red heat lamp which we bought and that has increased the end to end temperature nicely. Pic of Tort table attached.

Anyway - the torts have not eaten for around a week now - they are given their daily bath and they are very active. It finishes they go back in their table and they go to the edge burrow down and just sleep. Don't move, dont eat, dont poop, nothing.

We went to a local pet shop that we found online who specialises in reptiles and after a lot of discussion we decided to buy an enclosed vivarium with a UVB strip light, Deep Heat Infra Red light and thermostat to keep the temperature steady. The idea here on the advice of the shop was to keep the temperature up and constant while they were sick. They have been in their new home a day - and simply walked over to the edge burrow down and sleep - again no food. We are about to give them their second anti-biotic injection now. We have a hide but the pet shop said leave it out during the day so they can get lots of light and warmth and to pop it back in at night so they can sleep.

I will of-course get them back to the vet tomorrow - but I would love any advice on whether we are doing the right thing - and any advice on food?

Right now they have every leaf you can imagine thats safe for torts, along with pellet food, three different flavours - some solid some mashed in the hope we will find something that stimulates their appetite. Right now not sure what else to do. My son as you can imagine is worried as I am.

Any advice would be appreciated. My family has had tortoises for years and never had any issues, so we didn’t go into this lightly. We worked on advice from the shop and it appears it wasn’t great.

Thanks All

Gary

 

[Maro2Bear]

Greetings and Welcome.

Sorry to hear of the issues you are having with your new guys.

Is the pix you posted the most current set-up as you now have them?

Make sure you pop over to the Tortoise Species/Russian tab and read all the info there.
For starters - https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/russian-tortoise-care-sheet.80698/

It does sound like you started with sick torts, and things arent getting better. Lots of shots etc probably not helping.

From what I know, antibiotic shots will often decrease torts appetites, so it’s a catch 22. While you take are of the “infection” it reduces the urge to eat, which weakens the tort as well.

Part of the problem too is your setup. Just hard to maintain proper temperatures in a complete open top structure. I’m sure the temps are all over the place. Hot to cold, to very cold.

Substrate with those white bits are usually discouraged. Although not the cause of your issue right now, it can cause torts to peck and swallow those bits.

Are you housing both torts together? Again, not a good idea. If one is sick, both are now sick. Parasites x 2. Let alone the stress of living together, bullying, etc.

Id work on a better enclosure, better heating and lighting, removing any red infrared lights, swapping out the substrate. Again, non of these are the initial cause, but none are helping. Don’t worry about providing a ton of different food, you need to get them better first. Variety later. What was the shop feeding?

I’m thinking others will come along and provide soecific things you can do today to get your guys better.

Good luck!

 

[Steadg]

Thanks!

They are in an enclosed setup right now (pic attached). Both together though - this again is the conflicting info you get - we were told getting two would be better and then when they are 4yrs old they may need split - if two males.

 

[Ben02]

Poor little fellas, it may also help us if you take some pics of your Tortoises aswell. Tell your son not to worry to much either, you have come to the best place for help.

 

[Steadg]

Thanks. Really appreciate the advice. They are mobile enough just worries they haven’t eaten.

The lighter one of the two has the odd bubble blowing out of his nose.

Here is a few pics. We’ve just given them their second anti biotic injection, not fun!

 

[Ben02]

Have you tried bathing them. I use celebrations, heroes or quality street chocolate boxes (the round plastic ones) fill it with Luke warm water (water level mid way up the shell) and soak twice a day for thirty minutes and replace the water when it gets to cold.

 

[Steadg]

Yeah we are bathing them with a salt style electrolyte mixture from the vet twice a day

It’s more now the eating or the lack of it we are worried about.

 

[Ben02]

Yeah we are bathing them with a salt style electrolyte mixture from the vet twice a day

It’s more now the eating or the lack of it we are worried about.

Have you ever heard of carrot soaks? I think they would be very helpful in your case. I’m not sure what brand is best so I’ll tag some people in

@Tom
@Yvonne G

 

[Steadg]

Yeah - that’s something else we have tried a little of after reading this forum posts. The vet approved but said not too much as Russians are not great with sweet things. We have been doing 15 min soaks every other day using good quality baby food.

We really have tried most things - the good news is their temp is good now we have the enclosed terrarium. They are lively for a few minutes after their bath walking around and digging into the corner. Then they sleep.

How long can they do without physical food?

 

[Ben02]

Tortoises can go months without food aslong as they have water.

 

[Ben02]

When they are awake can you attempt to hand feed them a pellet or so? Are they alert and do they pull in their heads when you approach?

 

[Steadg]

When they are awake can you attempt to hand feed them a pellet or so? Are they alert and do they pull in their heads when you approach?

They are alert and pull in their heads when approached. We tried hand feeding - not been interested yet. They munched loads on their first day and then nothing since they got sick. They have one injection of anti biotics to go on Tuesday - but suppose they have been through a lot - Long Journey, new home, poor set up (on advice though!), vet visit - parasite treatment, injections etc. The gasping and bubbles from noses has stopped now....

 

[Ben02]

They are alert and pull in their heads when approached. We tried hand feeding - not been interested yet. They munched loads on their first day and then nothing since they got sick. They have one injection of anti biotics to go on Tuesday - but suppose they have been through a lot - Long Journey, new home, poor set up (on advice though!), vet visit - parasite treatment, injections etc. The gasping and bubbles from noses has stopped now....

That's some good news at least. You know I didn't even take in the fact that they are in a new home and tortoises hate change, sometimes they stop eating for a while in their new home. Until Tuesday keep offering food and I'll be keeping an eye on this thread and i will be desperate for updates. Good luck for Tuesday.

 

[AllieKat1997]

I read somewhere that if you have two young tortoises houses together one will fail - always. And by fail I mean die. I would highly recommend separating them because of this but also because they’re sick. We wouldn’t want one getting better just to get sick again from the other in a pattern of being unhealthy and sick. I’m no expert and I won’t pretend to be but that’s just my thoughts on it. Definitely separate. Also... most shop keepers are idiots. They don’t know what they’re doing and they have a corporate agenda to push the highest costing product onto people even when that product is crap. I would take my research from this forum, like you’re already doing, and from other resources like books. I have a book called Tortoises A Beginner’s Guide to Tortoise Care by Andrew and Nadine Highfield that I used to base some of my research on before I got my Golden Greek tortoise, Lumos, I used this forum for research and I used YouTube as a research base as well. I took everyone’s opinions and advice and cooked up my own idea on how to raise my hatchling. Knock on wood but Lumos is doing good. You got a very unfair deal getting two that were already sick. The book I mentioned above has a bunch of different tortoise species and care requirements for them. Anyway, I’m no expert, this is just from what I’ve read over the years.
Good Luck!!

 

[Ben02]

I read somewhere that if you have two young tortoises houses together one will fail - always. And by fail I mean die. I would highly recommend separating them because of this but also because they’re sick. We wouldn’t want one getting better just to get sick again from the other in a pattern of being unhealthy and sick. I’m no expert and I won’t pretend to be but that’s just my thoughts on it. Definitely separate. Also... most shop keepers are idiots. They don’t know what they’re doing and they have a corporate agenda to push the highest costing product onto people even when that product is crap. I would take my research from this forum, like you’re already doing, and from other resources like books. I have a book called Tortoises A Beginner’s Guide to Tortoise Care by Andrew and Nadine Highfield that I used to base some of my research on before I got my Golden Greek tortoise, Lumos, I used this forum for research and I used YouTube as a research base as well. I took everyone’s opinions and advice and cooked up my own idea on how to raise my hatchling. Knock on wood but Lumos is doing good. You got a very unfair deal getting two that were already sick. The book I mentioned above has a bunch of different tortoise species and care requirements for them. Anyway, I’m no expert, this is just from what I’ve read over the years.
Good Luck!!

What you said about keeping 2 together is not always the case. Yes one very well may become sickly and it’s very common for one to bully the other however, it’s not a death sentence for one of them. I understand your point though and they will have to be separated soon.

 

[AllieKat1997]

What you said about keeping 2 together is not always the case. Yes one very well may become sickly and it’s very common for one to bully the other however, it’s not a death sentence for one of them. I understand your point though and they will have to be separated soon.

I’m hope they will be separated regardless. Death is what I had heard but since I only have one baby I never researched the matter nor fact checked the source. They said that bullying and stress occur and if not separated then one tortoise will eventually die from stress and probably lack of nutrition. Incredibly sad either way. The way it was worded was, “One always looses.” And the source did mean “looses” as meaning “dies” but like I said, I’m definitely no expert, and I only have one baby, since I never planned on getting two I never looked into the matter. I hope the torts feel better soon.

 

[Ben02]

I’m hope they will be separated regardless. Death is what I had heard but since I only have one baby I never researched the matter nor fact checked the source. They said that bullying and stress occur and if not separated then one tortoise will eventually die from stress and probably lack of nutrition. Incredibly sad either way. The way it was worded was, “One always looses.” And the source did mean “looses” as meaning “dies” but like I said, I’m definitely no expert, and I only have one baby, since I never planned on getting two I never looked into the matter. I hope the torts feel better soon.

Your right though and it does happen. I wouldn’t recommend keeping two together but I know someone who does and they both thrive, they gain wait, they are healthy and are generally happy. (Although they are both females). Pairs rarely work, trios and groups can work nicely but it depends on the torts.

 

[Ben02]

They are alert and pull in their heads when approached. We tried hand feeding - not been interested yet. They munched loads on their first day and then nothing since they got sick. They have one injection of anti biotics to go on Tuesday - but suppose they have been through a lot - Long Journey, new home, poor set up (on advice though!), vet visit - parasite treatment, injections etc. The gasping and bubbles from noses has stopped now....

How did the vets go?

 

[Steadg]

So all seems to be ok - not eating yet though. They are having electrolyte baths and they are urinating and the white gel discharge they get is happening too. One more antibiotic injection tomorrow. They are moving around their housing too which is better than a few days ago. No discharge from nose or mouth anymore. Think I will relax once they actually eat something! Vet wants to see them again on 18th by then Antibiotics should be out of their system and we will get a good idea to whether there is any organ damage. The vet does think we caught it early though - did say antibiotics will impact appetite. Vet is a tortoise keeper so a good one to have!

 

[Steadg]

They are now separated in different Vivariums. The message here is really that I will do anything it takes. Once they are fit an healthy I will rehome one and the other will stay. Clearly more bad advice from the shop! These guys are Russians (Horsefields) and the vet said one of each.

Lets see how we go now!