Help identify sub specie of adult Hermann’s tortoise

maplecran

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Okinawa Japan
Please help to identify if my adult male Hermann’s is Western or Eastern sub specie.

I got him from someone who cant house him anymore, and according to him he is a Western Hermann’s tortoise and is about 4 years old. He weights about 450g.

I initially thought he was a Western but as i searched for the difference between the sub species the more I get uncertain which he is. I did give up already since it didnt matter by the end of the day. But I got curious again and I just thought I would free myself of it and finally ask you all.

He does look like he have a keyhole on his lower back scute, but his head looks kind of darker for a Western specie.

Here are a couple of pictures of him on different angles

B18524E2-D985-472C-9D75-CC5DC118B139.jpegB590E638-A12D-4C7D-8CD4-092908B08F3F.jpegEADEEDDB-0DCC-41E5-8604-6FE8FEF0621F.jpeg52E097C2-AA19-4FD0-8A55-156C2F439076.jpeg830C3946-A053-4E5E-B33B-F40194332346.jpeg
 

TeamZissou

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I'd say this is a pure Eastern Hermann's, or possibly some cross with Dalmatian--their ranges overlap, so that's not unlikely. Does it have ingunial scutes? I can't tell from the pic.

Giveaway that it's not a Western:
  • Pectoral and femoral scute suture lengths are about the same, usually femoral is much longer in Western
  • Supracaudal scute is not divided
  • Lack of unbroken, jet black bands along plastron
  • Humeral scute suture is more "V" shaped rather than more "U" shaped

This is what makes me think more pure Eastern:
  • The shape of the head looks more Eastern, rather than Dalmatian; it's not as blunt or rounded as a Dalmatian, particularly on the nose above the nostrils
  • Darker borders on carapace scutes have well defined black borders, rather than more ragged edges seen on Dalmatian
Less so, the Dalmatian influences I see are:
  • If he has no ingunial scutes (again it's hard to tell)
  • Slight presence of the "green heart" shape on top of head, though this isn't a 100% indicator
Ultimately I would say it's an Eastern Hermann's. He does have some good yellow colors going.


 

maplecran

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5 Year Member
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Okinawa Japan
@TeamZissou

Thank you so much for the detailed reply.
As for his inguinal scute, i am not sure which part of the scute around the leg is it so i took a picture of them instead.

Can you tell from these pictures?
5E593747-E03D-47C8-BEDF-E579F29085EE.jpegBA666045-455B-45F8-B45E-6BD323C60D0A.jpeg


I saw from the source page you shared some western and eastern can have missing inguinal scutes. Is this trait dalmatian has on most case?
 

TeamZissou

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The inguinal scute is missing in most (60%) of Dalmatians, so most easterns and westerns have it. The tortoise in your photo has them.

The thread linked above has a photo of a Dalmatian with missing inguinal scutes, with a green arrow. It’s the small triangular scute at the bridge, at the abdominal scute and carapace.
 
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