Help! My baby sulcata is trying to hurt the other one

cakberlin

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Hello

I have 2 sulcatas which I brought from the same pet shop in different time.
The 1st one called Noshi-Noshi and the other called Moja.

Noshi-Noshi has been with me for a month before I decided to buy Moja.
Their size is quite same; Noshi-Noshi is having 5,2 cm length from its plastron and Moja is having 5,1 cm length from its plastron.

From the 1st day of Moja's arrival, Noshi-Noshi seems don't like Moja that much.
He headbutted Moja and tried to bite Moja's head so that I have to separate them.

Enclosed their enclosure:

WhatsApp Image 2021-02-17 at 12.30.56.jpeg

I personally believe that the size of the enclosure are enough for two of them.
I even put 2 different food dish so that they won't fight for food.

Several days later, I found that they are now living in peace until this morning I saw Noshi-Noshi was biting Moja's face when Moja was sleeping.

Could anyone please advise me why this is happening?
I know that tortoise is a solitary animal but I often see many people keeps more than 1 baby sulcata in their enclosure.
Is it possible that both Noshi-Noshi and Moja is a male tortoise?

Should I put them in a separate enclosure? Can they kill each other even they are a baby?

Thanks
 

ISU

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Hello and welcome

I think they should be separated, and you need a much larger enclosure


Please read these caresheets



 

KarenSoCal

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They need to be separated and never put together again. Pairs of tortoises don't work. Sometimes groups of 3 or more can work, but 3 should be 1 male and 2 female.

Even if Noshi-Noshi stopped biting Moja, they both would still be miserable, and Moja would probably die. There's a lot more going on that you probably didn't notice, like following, sleeping together, laying on each other...all of that is bullying. Moja will stop eating, stop growing, and slowly die.

That big food dish is dangerous. The sides are steep and babies have a hard time getting in and out of them. The baby falls, often on to its back, and drowns. Please replace it with a terra cotta plant saucer, sunk into the substrate.

Welcome to the forum! It's good you found us before Moja was sick. They will be much happier each in his own enclosure.
 

cakberlin

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Hello and welcome

I think they should be separated, and you need a much larger enclosure


Please read these caresheets




Thank you for your advice and the caresheets. I already read the beginner mistakes and the best way to raise a sulcata leopard or star tortoise and I keep watching Tom's post (I found that his posts are very good!)

I will seperate their enclosure tomorrow.

Thanks!
 

cakberlin

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They need to be separated and never put together again. Pairs of tortoises don't work. Sometimes groups of 3 or more can work, but 3 should be 1 male and 2 female.

Even if Noshi-Noshi stopped biting Moja, they both would still be miserable, and Moja would probably die. There's a lot more going on that you probably didn't notice, like following, sleeping together, laying on each other...all of that is bullying. Moja will stop eating, stop growing, and slowly die.

That big food dish is dangerous. The sides are steep and babies have a hard time getting in and out of them. The baby falls, often on to its back, and drowns. Please replace it with a terra cotta plant saucer, sunk into the substrate.

Welcome to the forum! It's good you found us before Moja was sick. They will be much happier each in his own enclosure.

Hi!

I just knew that following, sleeping together and laying on each other are kind of bullying thing.
I thought that they are enjoying life together by doing that ?

Thank you for your advice, I will replace the food dish when I made the new enclosure for them.

P.S. At first I thought that nobody will reply to my question, but knowing you and gsxs750 replied to my question made me feel happy to join in this forum. I hope that I could raise Noshi-Noshi and Moja until they give me babies of Sulcata :D
 

Lyn W

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Bullying is very subtle to start with e.g staring, and what some people think is cute behaviour when one follows or 'cuddles' the other is actually the dominant one trying to get the other out of their space. It is very stressful for the one on the receiving end and could cause illness. It eventually becomes more aggressive with barging and biting and one trying to tip the other one over. It has led to serious injury and expensive vet bills and even death. So the sooner they each have their own enclosures and set ups the better and they will both be less stressed and happier in their own space.
When you see people with groups of tortoises that tolerate each other it is because they have very large areas where the torts can spread out and avoid each other.
If you keep the 2, as they grow they are each going to need bigger and bigger areas of their own and double everything, so think ahead and if you don't think that is do-able, maybe it would be in the best interest of the torts to re-home one now.
 

KarenSoCal

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Hi!

I just knew that following, sleeping together and laying on each other are kind of bullying thing.
I thought that they are enjoying life together by doing that ?

Thank you for your advice, I will replace the food dish when I made the new enclosure for them.

P.S. At first I thought that nobody will reply to my question, but knowing you and gsxs750 replied to my question made me feel happy to join in this forum. I hope that I could raise Noshi-Noshi and Moja until they give me babies of Sulcata :D
If you could fix a large enough outdoor enclosure, you could try 3. But not knowing the genders for several years makes it a game of chance trying for 1 male, 2 female.
 

cakberlin

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Bullying is very subtle to start with e.g staring, and what some people think is cute behaviour when one follows or 'cuddles' the other is actually the dominant one trying to get the other out of their space. It is very stressful for the one on the receiving end and could cause illness. It eventually becomes more aggressive with barging and biting and one trying to tip the other one over. It has led to serious injury and expensive vet bills and even death. So the sooner they each have their own enclosures and set ups the better and they will both be less stressed and happier in their own space.
When you see people with groups of tortoises that tolerate each other it is because they have very large areas where the torts can spread out and avoid each other.
If you keep the 2, as they grow they are each going to need bigger and bigger areas of their own and double everything, so think ahead and if you don't think that is do-able, maybe it would be in the best interest of the torts to re-home one now.

Thank you for the information!
I used to think that staring at each other mean they are trying to make a bond with each other ?

Does it mean bullying happens with the tortoise with same gender?
Or it happens just because they are a solitary animal?
 

Lyn W

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Thank you for the information!
I used to think that staring at each other mean they are trying to make a bond with each other ?

Does it mean bullying happens with the tortoise with same gender?
Or it happens just because they are a solitary animal?
Because they are solitary creatures. They don't like competition for food, space or basking etc - even if male and female. In the wild they may meet to breed but then go their own separate ways. In small spaces the male will constantly harass the female to mate and make her life a misery. Groups work better but the more torts you have the more space you need to give them a good quality of life ,and more costs to keep them healthy especially with big species like sulcata.
Please read the links you have been given.
 

wellington

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Thank you for your advice and the caresheets. I already read the beginner mistakes and the best way to raise a sulcata leopard or star tortoise and I keep watching Tom's post (I found that his posts are very good!)

I will seperate their enclosure tomorrow.

Thanks!
If you already read all the info then why are they still living together and in such a poor enclosure?
Read the info again and make all the changes needed!
 

wellington

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Hi!

I just knew that following, sleeping together and laying on each other are kind of bullying thing.
I thought that they are enjoying life together by doing that ?

Thank you for your advice, I will replace the food dish when I made the new enclosure for them.

P.S. At first I thought that nobody will reply to my question, but knowing you and gsxs750 replied to my question made me feel happy to join in this forum. I hope that I could raise Noshi-Noshi and Moja until they give me babies of Sulcata :D
You need to keep reading on this forum and taking actions on the advice you read and are given before even thinking about having tortoise babies. That is a long time off but you have a lot too learn to do it right. Starting hatchlings out correctly is important to their health. Taking actions right away when you know you are doing something wrong is something you need to start doing. Waiting to see what might happen could be the life of a tortoise because you didnt take action.
Lots of time, money and learning goes into raising tortoises.
 

cakberlin

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If you could fix a large enough outdoor enclosure, you could try 3. But not knowing the genders for several years makes it a game of chance trying for 1 male, 2 female.

I am going to put them in the outdoor enclosure when they are big enough. Thank you for the advice :)

If you already read all the info then why are they still living together and in such a poor enclosure?
Read the info again and make all the changes needed!

I already followed the instruction by preparing the recommended size of the enclosure.
I even saw one of his photos that he is having bunch of baby sulcata in one enclosure and based on that I think the size of my enclosure is enough for my two tortoises.

I just wanted to know why it could happened since the size of my enclosure is quite spacious for them at the moment. I even separated their food dish. I was wondering that maybe both of them are male or can I make them together in 1 place even when they are grown up (I am still thinking that they are male and female :D)

Anyhow, thank you for the advice! I am now preparing the new enclosure for my tortoise and I will keep learning to make my tortoise healthy! I want to watch them grow up to their maximum size and lifespan! ?

Someone in this group will always answer you. You may not like the answers but there is always someone available to help. This group is invaluable as far as the information you receive. You just need to follow it!?

Couldn't agree more. I found this group is giving much more correct information to keep the tortoise compared to the other group such as in FB or else. ☺
 

wellington

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Even if they are Male and female they can still not live together. He will try mating her to death.
When hatchlings are hatched they can live in a group for a short time. But magic word there is group, not pair. The other is that they are hatchlings that just hatched.
If you have the very large yard, at least an 1/2 acre and money to make the proper housing for your area/weather then once you know what sexes you have, you could add another. 1 male to at least 2 females can live together some times, not always.
 

cakberlin

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Even if they are Male and female they can still not live together. He will try mating her to death.
When hatchlings are hatched they can live in a group for a short time. But magic word there is group, not pair. The other is that they are hatchlings that just hatched.
If you have the very large yard, at least an 1/2 acre and money to make the proper housing for your area/weather then once you know what sexes you have, you could add another. 1 male to at least 2 females can live together some times, not always.

Noted for the information.
I wish I could have an enclosure like the one which Kamp Kenan's have ?

Anyway, I finally moved Moja to her new enclosure.
I am now waiting for the new feeding dish to arrive.

Thank you for all of your advices ?

WhatsApp Image 2021-02-19 at 09.37.14.jpeg
 

Avuwyy

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Hey, just to add to this.
Since Sulcata tortoises are a species which live in the hotter climates of Africa, in most places they will need additional heat to thrive, otherwise they will become slower, sleep more, refuse to eat (due to finding it more difficult to digest food), and at their age, it could actually kill them, as heat is needed for the body to thrive.

with a lamp separated between the two, neither have an appropriate place to bask, and seeing as this lamp is one that provides light, it would be switched off during the night. Whilst temperatures should drop slightly during the night, there should always be some heat in the enclosure, whether that be from a heat mat under a rock, or an overhead ceramic heat bulb, for such a young species of tortoise, an African tortoise at that, there should be the option to turn the heat on during the night.

So what I would recommend is buying two more stands, one with a bulb with uvb, and one/two with ceramic heat emitters, which could be placed between them. Depending on the temperature of your house depends on if you’d need two heat emitters, I only need one small one for my room as I tend to have gas on assisting with heat overnight.


What I may suggest whilst I’m here too, is to add a little bit of top soil to the substrate. Tortoises like the sulcata enjoy digging, and it holds moisture which will release with the heat, assisting with humidity. Also given their small size and soft skin and shells, you’d want something which makes the ground a little firmer, and lowers the risk of the substrate flipping around and poking one of your tortoises in the eyes.

I made a few mistakes when I first got my tortoise, there a lot of misinformation out there which can really put you in a tough spot. But hopefully what is said here helps!
 

cakberlin

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Is that one light shared between the two?? Do you have night heat?

Temps at night must not go below 80. Without those being covered, the humidity will never maintain 80%

Yes, at the moment I am sharing the lamp while waiting for the new fitting to be arrived. I don’t have any night heat.

I lived in Indonesia where the temp at night will not go any lower than 28 C.
The humidity is mostly go around 60% to 70%. I keep misting their enclosure to maintain the humidity up to 80%. Considering the natural condition in my area, do I still need to place a night heat? The room temperature at noon time usually around 30-31.

Hey, just to add to this.
Since Sulcata tortoises are a species which live in the hotter climates of Africa, in most places they will need additional heat to thrive, otherwise they will become slower, sleep more, refuse to eat (due to finding it more difficult to digest food), and at their age, it could actually kill them, as heat is needed for the body to thrive.

with a lamp separated between the two, neither have an appropriate place to bask, and seeing as this lamp is one that provides light, it would be switched off during the night. Whilst temperatures should drop slightly during the night, there should always be some heat in the enclosure, whether that be from a heat mat under a rock, or an overhead ceramic heat bulb, for such a young species of tortoise, an African tortoise at that, there should be the option to turn the heat on during the night.

So what I would recommend is buying two more stands, one with a bulb with uvb, and one/two with ceramic heat emitters, which could be placed between them. Depending on the temperature of your house depends on if you’d need two heat emitters, I only need one small one for my room as I tend to have gas on assisting with heat overnight.


What I may suggest whilst I’m here too, is to add a little bit of top soil to the substrate. Tortoises like the sulcata enjoy digging, and it holds moisture which will release with the heat, assisting with humidity. Also given their small size and soft skin and shells, you’d want something which makes the ground a little firmer, and lowers the risk of the substrate flipping around and poking one of your tortoises in the eyes.

I made a few mistakes when I first got my tortoise, there a lot of misinformation out there which can really put you in a tough spot. But hopefully what is said here helps!

Hi

Thanks for the input.
The substrate which I am using at the moment called coco husk. It’s made off coconut shell which been dried. May I know what kind of soil that should be added to its top?

Couldn’t agree more, there are lot of misinformation out there. Back then in 2013, when I first got my tortoises, many people said that tortoises such as sulcata and indian star do not like water and humidity. (I just recently adopted my new tortoises because I have to stay at home all the time due to pandemic situation in my country).
 

Avuwyy

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Yes, at the moment I am sharing the lamp while waiting for the new fitting to be arrived. I don’t have any night heat.

I lived in Indonesia where the temp at night will not go any lower than 28 C.
The humidity is mostly go around 60% to 70%. I keep misting their enclosure to maintain the humidity up to 80%. Considering the natural condition in my area, do I still need to place a night heat? The room temperature at noon time usually around 30-31.



Hi

Thanks for the input.
The substrate which I am using at the moment called coco husk. It’s made off coconut shell which been dried. May I know what kind of soil that should be added to its top?

Couldn’t agree more, there are lot of misinformation out there. Back then in 2013, when I first got my tortoises, many people said that tortoises such as sulcata and indian star do not like water and humidity. (I just recently adopted my new tortoises because I have to stay at home all the time due to pandemic situation in my country).

I myself use Westland top soil, it retains moisture well, and is thoroughly sieved to remove stones and debris which could cause impaction. You don’t want a top soil which has sand in it, or contains chemicals used to speed up plant growth. The only top soil I use is Westland as it is the one most recommended by tortoise owners as far as I’ve seen, though if anyone else has any additional recommendations : )
I use coconut husk myself, but I added this after I was able to feel the firmness of my tortoise’s shell, and could acknowledge that he could easily clamber over such things when walking, the skin of young tortoises is very soft and if it manages to get caught somewhere within the openings of the shell, such as between the back legs and tail, it can be quite painful. Adding soil to make the ground flatter and easier to walk on for them, until they are a little less squishy would be ideal : )

Unsure on if you can get this variety in Indonesia, but this is the soil I am referring to::
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07739RTZ8/?tag=

I received similar information when I got my leopard tortoise, though I did research beforehand and acknowledged that their information was indeed wrong. Unfortunately at the time I was unaware of how badly kept many animals are in pet shops and my little dude has extremely stunted growth due to inadequate watering at such a young age. Places like this are perfect for new tortoise owners as they allow you to interact with experienced tortoise keepers and breeders all over the world, meaning you can get exactly where you need to be with your tortoises!

Also before I forget, I’m not saying you should get this now as they’re still young, but in the future I’d invest in two slate slabs for them to eat from, this will help them grind down their beaks and prevent them from becoming overgrown. Also slate heats up really well and could be used as a good basking platform. My dude can be found sitting on his slate throughout the day to get warm! It’s a real big favourite : )
 
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