[Help needed]A complicated little relationship with our star tortoise in India.

todi

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Hi,
I've been reading about star tortoises on this forum and found some really good threads which have given me great info about having a star tortoise as a pet.
Now, about the tortoise I have: Technically, the tortoise isn't ours. It belongs to my cousin who has had it since 7-8 years I think. As long as I can remember I have seen the tortoise being kept on tiles or carpets. They have fed him with orkas or tomatoes or cucumbers.
My cousin has recently shifted to our neighbourhood and he travels a week and stays home a week. Since we have kids at home, my aunty has started giving the tortoise to us and we all instantly fell in love with the creature.
For a couple of months, I didn't really know if he has been raised correctly or not. Then I saw some videos on YouTube and found taht our "Gojaa" doesn't walk with upright hind legs. I realised this must be because of the tiles. Honestly, we didn't do any research when we brought him home. We just fed him spinach leaves, coriander leaves, tomatoes, orkas, etc. Took him to the sun every day and soaked him for 5 mins or so everyday. During chilly winter nights, we used to wrap him with a towel to let him sleep (I now know this was wrong). I am sharing some recent pictures here.
Now I know atleast some things, so I'm building an enclosure for him. It's an open enclosure for now. I have attached it's photos too.
I have a few questions:
  • Should it always be a closed enclosure? We're keeping this in the balcony, there may not be much light over here. But the area is well protected from birds, etc. We shall take it into the sun everyday.
  • We are located in Vadodara. The night temperatures are usually low on the outside. The minimum this season shall be 15 deg C or about 59 deg F. So should we put up some UVB lamps to keep the temperatures fine? We don't have things like a thermostat here. The box is about 2.5ft x 6ft so I don't know how to maintain temperatures for him.
  • We'll keep the soil moist, but how much humidity should we maintain? I'm getting myself a sensor for the same to keep a track.
The biggest dilemma is that our cousin will take back the tortoise every week. And then he will definitely not keep him the way we are planning to do. So basically he will take it away for a week and we'll have him back. My cousin has raised him for a very long period, so I know he cannot just give him away to me. Also, I know that the animal is not being raised correctly. We obviously cannot get into a fight with our relatives! But I really feel for the animal!

I don't know what to do! Please help!
 

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SinLA

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I can't add anything to the questions above, but that photo of the tortoise next to an open trench is kind of terrifying...
 

wellington

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He is too big now for a closed chamber. You do want to try and get some humidity in there for him though. A warm humid hide or when he is outside when it's warm, you can mist water in the area. He should be living outside 24/7 in the warmer months. That table you are working on is way too small. The walking problems is from lack of space to roam and the tiles. Possibly diet too.
A whole lot of things need to be made better for him.
Read and follow the care sheet on this forum
 

TammyJ

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Hi and welcome! He is beautiful but needs a lot of improvement in his care. If you can provide any of the requirements listed in the care sheets, it would be good. He should be given to you permanently as you obviously care about him. @Tom
 

Tom

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  • Should it always be a closed enclosure? We're keeping this in the balcony, there may not be much light over here. But the area is well protected from birds, etc. We shall take it into the sun everyday.
  • We are located in Vadodara. The night temperatures are usually low on the outside. The minimum this season shall be 15 deg C or about 59 deg F. So should we put up some UVB lamps to keep the temperatures fine? We don't have things like a thermostat here. The box is about 2.5ft x 6ft so I don't know how to maintain temperatures for him.
  • We'll keep the soil moist, but how much humidity should we maintain? I'm getting myself a sensor for the same to keep a track.
I'm happy that you are trying to help this tortoise, and that makes me want to help YOU.

Generally, baby stars need to be raised in large warm humid closed chamber. Using a closed chamber makes it easy to control the necessary heat and humidity. Once they are large enough, like yours, and if your climate is suitable, as yours and mine are, they can be moved outside full time into a large secure enclosure on the ground with a temperature controlled night box. This is what works. Tortoise tables do not work for star tortoises.

Here is what doesn't work: A small open table on a shady balcony with no thermostat to control a heating device. I'll elaborate:
-This tortoise needs at least 4x8 feet of space. Best if this is outdoors in a sunny area, and you can provide plants and heavy shade in hotter weather.
-15 C is too cold at night. The tortoise needs a heated shelter.
-There are thermostats in India. I don't know how close to you they might be, but they are there. You can also adapt a non-reptile thermostat to work for you if needed. Any electrician should be able to make a simple one for you. My uncle used to make them for me from hardware store parts before they started selling decent ones over here.
-Tortoises are solar powered. They must always have shade available so that they don't over heat, but they also need access to direct sunshine so that they can warm up. Indoors we use heat lamps and UV tubes to simulate the sun.

You have two options that will work:
Make a large closed chamber for indoors and get the proper heating and lighting for it, or make a large safe outdoor enclosure for the tortoise and build a heated shelter for it.

Here is an example of a suitable night box:

More info here:

 

todi

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Hello Everyone,
Thank you for the inputs. Specially @Tom, your threads are a gold mine!
I've gone through your inputs for the enclosure, unfortunately, right now we cannot afford a larger space for him. We will take him out in the sun everyday, for his daily sun requirement, sometime and bring him back to the enclosure. For the temperature requirement, I'll get the enclosure redesigned to accommodate a thermostat and a induction heater. I understand that these are cold blooded living things and need to be helped with temperature management. I believe that nights in our location will slowly become hotter, reaching upto 30deg C. There's a light in our balcony (6500K), do we need to keep them on at night or tortoises can rest in darkness? I feel if we keep the lights on at night, there will be too many insects around the box.

I'm sorry if I have missed some pointers in your threads, there is too much of information to understand in one go.

Again, the current box doesn't have any direct sunlight. My cousin just came today to give us the tortoise. I feel he is really confused after we put him on the soil. He's been roaming around all day in it. He also is trying to claw on the vertical surface of the box. The soil is mostly coco peat mixed with some garden soil. It is still slightly wet, I thought it would be good to keep things humid. I am not sure what to grow there, right now we have planted some wheatgrass and are looking for options which do not require direct sunlight and are suitable for the tortoise too.

Coming to the diet, I was referring to this link on the forum as most of the items are readily available locally. Should we be worried about the calcium levels? How do we know if we need to give him some supplements?
Thanks in advance for the inputs, I will try my level best to incorporate them. We shall move to a larger home probably in the next few months. And we'll make a better home for him. We call him "Gojaa" by the way.
 

Tom

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Hello Everyone,
Thank you for the inputs. Specially @Tom, your threads are a gold mine!
I've gone through your inputs for the enclosure, unfortunately, right now we cannot afford a larger space for him. We will take him out in the sun everyday, for his daily sun requirement, sometime and bring him back to the enclosure. For the temperature requirement, I'll get the enclosure redesigned to accommodate a thermostat and a induction heater. I understand that these are cold blooded living things and need to be helped with temperature management. I believe that nights in our location will slowly become hotter, reaching upto 30deg C. There's a light in our balcony (6500K), do we need to keep them on at night or tortoises can rest in darkness? I feel if we keep the lights on at night, there will be too many insects around the box.

I'm sorry if I have missed some pointers in your threads, there is too much of information to understand in one go.

Again, the current box doesn't have any direct sunlight. My cousin just came today to give us the tortoise. I feel he is really confused after we put him on the soil. He's been roaming around all day in it. He also is trying to claw on the vertical surface of the box. The soil is mostly coco peat mixed with some garden soil. It is still slightly wet, I thought it would be good to keep things humid. I am not sure what to grow there, right now we have planted some wheatgrass and are looking for options which do not require direct sunlight and are suitable for the tortoise too.

Coming to the diet, I was referring to this link on the forum as most of the items are readily available locally. Should we be worried about the calcium levels? How do we know if we need to give him some supplements?
Thanks in advance for the inputs, I will try my level best to incorporate them. We shall move to a larger home probably in the next few months. And we'll make a better home for him. We call him "Gojaa" by the way.
It should be dark at night, but still warm.

That food link is a good basic start, but try to learn many more plants and flowers to feed. Vareity is important.

There is no practical way to know if all of your tortoises dietary needs are being met by the food you provide. This is why, even with a good varied diet, it is advisable to use a little supplementation. Add in a little calcium powder twice a week, and a little inch of reptile vitamins once a week. An adult male really does not need supplementation if you are able to give lots of those different foods, but a little supplementation won't hurt anything either.

Soil/garden soil should not be used as tortoise substrate. The coco peat is fine, but keep it damp and hand pack it down firmly. Orchid bark works better if you can find it there.

If there is no sun in the area of the enclosure, you will need a heat lamp for daytime to simulate the sun.
 

todi

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It should be dark at night, but still warm.

That food link is a good basic start, but try to learn many more plants and flowers to feed. Vareity is important.

There is no practical way to know if all of your tortoises dietary needs are being met by the food you provide. This is why, even with a good varied diet, it is advisable to use a little supplementation. Add in a little calcium powder twice a week, and a little inch of reptile vitamins once a week. An adult male really does not need supplementation if you are able to give lots of those different foods, but a little supplementation won't hurt anything either.

Soil/garden soil should not be used as tortoise substrate. The coco peat is fine, but keep it damp and hand pack it down firmly. Orchid bark works better if you can find it there.

If there is no sun in the area of the enclosure, you will need a heat lamp for daytime to simulate the sun.
Thanks for the quick response!
Quick questions, when we say heat lamp. Are we talking about an Infrared lamp source? We work with LED manufacturers, but I’m not sure they useful in our case here.
We have ZooMed available, but there are two variants with D3 and without D3. Should we go with the without D3 variant as we are going to take him into the sun daily?
 

Tom

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Thanks for the quick response!
Quick questions, when we say heat lamp. Are we talking about an Infrared lamp source? We work with LED manufacturers, but I’m not sure they useful in our case here.
We have ZooMed available, but there are two variants with D3 and without D3. Should we go with the without D3 variant as we are going to take him into the sun daily?
Heat lamps need to be incandescent flood bulbs. No infrared or any other colored bulbs over tortoises.

Are you talking about the calcium supplements from ZooMed? It really doesn't matter which one you use. The small amount of D3 that you will be using in a pinch or two per week won't cause any harm to a tortoise that is getting lots of sunshine, but it might be helpful if the enclosure is mostly shaded.
 

todi

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Hello @Tom,
I was searching on the forum on suggestions to trim our Tort's nails. Actually the hind leg nails seem overgrown and I feel he's not able to stand on the hind legs because the nails get in the way. I have attached some photos of the hind legs and their nails. Do you think we should trim them? If yes, how? Should we take him to a vet to get it done or it's something we can do at home? I also read somewhere that we can let them crawl over concrete floors and the nails will naturally wear off as needed. Is it correct?
 

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Tom

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Hello @Tom,
I was searching on the forum on suggestions to trim our Tort's nails. Actually the hind leg nails seem overgrown and I feel he's not able to stand on the hind legs because the nails get in the way. I have attached some photos of the hind legs and their nails. Do you think we should trim them? If yes, how? Should we take him to a vet to get it done or it's something we can do at home? I also read somewhere that we can let them crawl over concrete floors and the nails will naturally wear off as needed. Is it correct?
Can you take a picture of the tortoise's plastron showing the anal scutes and tail clearly?

You may have a female, and if so, those nails are normal.
 

todi

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Hello @Tom ,

Here’s the photo you needed.
It’s been two days the tortoise is with us, we are putting him in the box during the day and at nights I bring him indoors for now because the room temperatures are quite better than the balcony. I think the coco peat substrate is disliked by the tortoise, it is wet (not moist) and so it’s colder than usual. The tortoise roams around in the box, eats and drinks water but regularly tries to crawl on the vertical surface of the box. My family insists that he doesn’t like the box enclosure. I think it’s because of the wet coco peat. I wanted to keep the substrate moist for him and I think I have overdone it. The substrate sticks to his (or her) feet while walking. When I press the substrate, water slightly seeps out of it. It’s not marshy wet but it’s wet. I’m arranging a standard incandescent lamp for the day time. I’m looking for reliable CHE’s for the nights actually, but everything on Amazon looks inferior to me.
It’s killing me to see that I’ve messed up the substrate like this, though I must say he does walk quite better on it. The hind legs stretch out nicely.
Please let me know what you think about all this. I’ll try my best to incorporate the changes.
 

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Tom

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Hello @Tom ,

Here’s the photo you needed.
It’s been two days the tortoise is with us, we are putting him in the box during the day and at nights I bring him indoors for now because the room temperatures are quite better than the balcony. I think the coco peat substrate is disliked by the tortoise, it is wet (not moist) and so it’s colder than usual. The tortoise roams around in the box, eats and drinks water but regularly tries to crawl on the vertical surface of the box. My family insists that he doesn’t like the box enclosure. I think it’s because of the wet coco peat. I wanted to keep the substrate moist for him and I think I have overdone it. The substrate sticks to his (or her) feet while walking. When I press the substrate, water slightly seeps out of it. It’s not marshy wet but it’s wet. I’m arranging a standard incandescent lamp for the day time. I’m looking for reliable CHE’s for the nights actually, but everything on Amazon looks inferior to me.
It’s killing me to see that I’ve messed up the substrate like this, though I must say he does walk quite better on it. The hind legs stretch out nicely.
Please let me know what you think about all this. I’ll try my best to incorporate the changes.
The substrate will dry out. Squeeze whatever you can out by hand, and keep it hand packed.

The tortoise is climbing the sides because the enclosure is too small, its not warm enough, and there are not enough hiding areas. This is a shy species and they don't like to be out and exposed. I told you before that the open table is not going to work. You need a large closed chamber and you need the correct heating and lighting ASAP.

This tortoise needs heat immediately. Every day that is remains too cold makes a respiratory infection more likely.

I think you have a female. Is the plastron flat or concave?
 

TammyJ

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It's great to follow this and know that this tortoise is getting such care and help!
 

todi

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The substrate will dry out. Squeeze whatever you can out by hand, and keep it hand packed.

The tortoise is climbing the sides because the enclosure is too small, its not warm enough, and there are not enough hiding areas. This is a shy species and they don't like to be out and exposed. I told you before that the open table is not going to work. You need a large closed chamber and you need the correct heating and lighting ASAP.

This tortoise needs heat immediately. Every day that is remains too cold makes a respiratory infection more likely.

I think you have a female. Is the plastron flat or concave?
The plastron is flat.
Update on the enclosure: I've installed a 100W incandescent light to simulate daylight and a 50W UVA / UVB light for warmth. I'm getting a CHE soon for the hiding place. We're making two of them. I'll share a picture as soon as we install everything.
As for now, we are taking him out into the sun in our building compound for half an hour to soak the sun.
If She's a female then we should bother about trimming the nails? But I feel they are interfering while she's walking, she's not able to lift herself from the back legs because the nails are too long. (That's what I feel, she may have some other difficulty which I'm not able to understand!)
 

Tom

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The plastron is flat.
Update on the enclosure: I've installed a 100W incandescent light to simulate daylight and a 50W UVA / UVB light for warmth. I'm getting a CHE soon for the hiding place. We're making two of them. I'll share a picture as soon as we install everything.
As for now, we are taking him out into the sun in our building compound for half an hour to soak the sun.
If She's a female then we should bother about trimming the nails? But I feel they are interfering while she's walking, she's not able to lift herself from the back legs because the nails are too long. (That's what I feel, she may have some other difficulty which I'm not able to understand!)
What type of bulb s the 50 watt UV? Is it a mercury vapor bulb?

Be careful taking the tortoise out in the sun. Be sure there is always heavy shade and a place to cool down.

My females are able to walk just fine with those elongated nest digging nails, so I suspect something else may be wrong. Possibly constipation or metabolic bone disease.
 

todi

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What type of bulb s the 50 watt UV? Is it a mercury vapor bulb?

Be careful taking the tortoise out in the sun. Be sure there is always heavy shade and a place to cool down.

My females are able to walk just fine with those elongated nest digging nails, so I suspect something else may be wrong. Possibly constipation or metabolic bone disease.
The UV lamp is a halogen one. I think I read somewhere that mercury vapor lamps are harmful to their eyes.
Yes, there's shade available when we take her out for a walk. I think she loves the shades after a few minutes. Regarding the legs, I am not ruling out the problem of MBD. I think it's not constipation, because she poops twice or thrice a week. I don't know if it's normal or not, I'm just assuming this should be the right frequency.
I'll check if there's a vet here who can perform an xray to confirm the MBD.
Her ZooMed calcium supplements are on their way too.
 

Tom

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The UV lamp is a halogen one. I think I read somewhere that mercury vapor lamps are harmful to their eyes.
Yes, there's shade available when we take her out for a walk. I think she loves the shades after a few minutes. Regarding the legs, I am not ruling out the problem of MBD. I think it's not constipation, because she poops twice or thrice a week. I don't know if it's normal or not, I'm just assuming this should be the right frequency.
I'll check if there's a vet here who can perform an xray to confirm the MBD.
Her ZooMed calcium supplements are on their way too.
There is no halogen UV bulb. That doesn't exist. I've never heard of a 50 watt mercury vapor bulb, but that might exist. MVBs sometimes make too much UV and sometimes none at all, and this is one of several reasons why they are not recommended. Do you still have the package that the UV bulb came in? I am curious what it might be.

Two or three bowel movements a week is fairly normal, so we can eliminate that possibility.
 

todi

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There is no halogen UV bulb. That doesn't exist. I've never heard of a 50 watt mercury vapor bulb, but that might exist. MVBs sometimes make too much UV and sometimes none at all, and this is one of several reasons why they are not recommended. Do you still have the package that the UV bulb came in? I am curious what it might be.

Two or three bowel movements a week is fairly normal, so we can eliminate that possibility.
I'm so glad that I came to the right place, you are actively helping me understand what's good for our tort. Thank you so much Tom!
I don't have the packaging with me now, but here's the link to the product.
Regarding the UV thing, I am taking her downstairs into natural sunlight for about 15-20 mins or some times longer. She roams around for sometime then runs into some shade for sometime, then comes back out. We soak her in warm water after that and feed her. So, I don't really know if the UVA/UVB are so important. She loves to bask under the 100W lamp though. I am really waiting for the CHE lamps to arrive so that she can sleep in a heated environment, right now she just sleeps on a rug in my room which is warm at about 27 or 28 deg C.
 

Tom

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I'm so glad that I came to the right place, you are actively helping me understand what's good for our tort. Thank you so much Tom!
I don't have the packaging with me now, but here's the link to the product.
Regarding the UV thing, I am taking her downstairs into natural sunlight for about 15-20 mins or some times longer. She roams around for sometime then runs into some shade for sometime, then comes back out. We soak her in warm water after that and feed her. So, I don't really know if the UVA/UVB are so important. She loves to bask under the 100W lamp though. I am really waiting for the CHE lamps to arrive so that she can sleep in a heated environment, right now she just sleeps on a rug in my room which is warm at about 27 or 28 deg C.
I've never seen a light like that, and I am skeptical. I would want to put a Solarmeter under it to see what, if any, UV it is putting out.

I agree that if the tortoise is getting access to real direct sunshine regularly, that the indoor UV is unimportant.

Letting the tortoise loose to roam on the floor inside or loose outside is not safe, cannot be made safe, and is likely to eventually lead to sickness, injury or death. Everyone thinks its safe, says they supervise closely, and can't imagine what could go wrong, but we see what goes wrong here on a regular basis. They eat things, they get broken limbs from being stepped on or kicked accidentally, one got its head smashed in the door jamb, they escape out of a door left open, and its too cold down there on the floor indoors and usually too slick. The list of things that go wrong is endless. They need to be kept in safe tortoise enclosures that are designed and made for them.
 

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