Help on an indoor enclosure for 5 year old Hermann's

Dave CH

Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2022
Messages
50
Location (City and/or State)
Switzerland
Morning from Switzerland,
We would appreciate your help with planning an indoor enclosure for two 5 year old Hermann's.
I know that I could probably get everything I need by trawling the forums and piecing information together, but (unfortunately) time's tight, and any concrete advice we can get by posting would help us.

We've two 5 year old Hermann's, both born in Switzerland. They spend their days out in a pen; their nights in a terrarium. (Incidentally, we've also two older Hermann's, a male and a female, who we hibernate in the wine cellar; she is around 80+ years old, he a little younger. All four torts are "inherited"/saved.)
We hibernate the youngsters at 6 to 8 Celsius (they're due to come out of hibernation in around 5 weeks' time), but as we're at around 800 m above sea level, this means that there are several weeks between them coming out of hibernation and being able to spend any length of time outside (all weather dependent). The same in autumn: the outside temperature makes spending any length of time outside problematic, which means that they have to spend more time in the terrarium.

We would like to build them a bigger inside enclosure.
We've a table in a light cellar (the cellars are half underground, half overground, so have windows); the table is 180 cm by 90 cm (so, 70 by 35 inches).
We think this would take an enclosure.
The cellars are mouse-free, but our cats are sometimes down there, so we'd need to cat proof the enclosure (especially the roof and any heating/lighting elements).

Our questions:
How to build an enclosure for the cellar table (so, what features).
What heat, light, basking? (We have them at 22 Celsius when they first come up into the terrarium, plus a basking area.) (The cellar is at a stable 14 Celsius or so.)
What air circulation needs?

A family member's good with wood, and it willing to lend a hand.

Any help, advice, or links to other forum threads would be very welcome.

We're, of course, happy to answer any additional questions.

All the best -
Dave CH
 

Lyn W

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2014
Messages
23,497
Location (City and/or State)
UK
Hi and welcome,
The first thing I would suggest is to house them separately. Torts are solitary creatures and sharing their space can be very stressful for them. One will eventually become dominant and will bully the other. It starts with very subtle behaviour such as staring, hogging the food and best basking spot, following and very close contact which is often mistaken for affection but is the dominant tort telling the other to get out of his space. It then becomes more aggressive with mounting, barging and biting which can cause serious injury and even death. The stress alone can affect their immune system and makes them vulnerable to illness. The tort on the receiving end of bullying is often smaller and not thriving as s/he would on their own, This happens with same sex, and if male and female the male will constantly harass the female to mate.
They will need a minimum size of 4 x 8 feet each, but the bigger the better.
This is the caresheet you need to help with your set up
It's mainly aimed at raising from hatchlings but there will be a lot of information you can use.
If you look at the Mediterranean Tort treads in Species Specific section you'll find other good advice to start you off until more members offer technical advice.
Please read through and ask as many questions as you like.
 

Dave CH

Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2022
Messages
50
Location (City and/or State)
Switzerland
Hi and welcome,
The first thing I would suggest is to house them separately. Torts are solitary creatures and sharing their space can be very stressful for them. One will eventually become dominant and will bully the other. It starts with very subtle behaviour such as staring, hogging the food and best basking spot, following and very close contact which is often mistaken for affection but is the dominant tort telling the other to get out of his space. It then becomes more aggressive with mounting, barging and biting which can cause serious injury and even death. The stress alone can affect their immune system and makes them vulnerable to illness. The tort on the receiving end of bullying is often smaller and not thriving as s/he would on their own, This happens with same sex, and if male and female the male will constantly harass the female to mate.
They will need a minimum size of 4 x 8 feet each, but the bigger the better.
This is the caresheet you need to help with your set up
It's mainly aimed at raising from hatchlings but there will be a lot of information you can use.
If you look at the Mediterranean Tort treads in Species Specific section you'll find other good advice to start you off until more members offer technical advice.
Please read through and ask as many questions as you like.
Thanks Lyn, that's very kind of you.
I've taken a quick look at the caresheet link, and it will be first on my list for tomorrow morning (more in-depth study).

Re housing them separately: I understand the argument and the science for. I see the two torts in question pretty much all day (on and off) pretty much every day, and the relationship is fairly friction free (or appears to be). Both were born in Switzerland so both are male; I've seen each mount the other occasionally, even if (for undiagnosed reasons) there's a huge difference in size and weight.
On the occasions when the larger animal gets, shall we say a little boisterous, I separate them for 20 minutes or so, which has almost always done the trick. I had been considering incorporating a slide-in separation in their new space, for this very reason.

Best regards -
Dave
 

Dave CH

Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2022
Messages
50
Location (City and/or State)
Switzerland
Hello again Lyn and all,
So yes, Mrs. CH is happy to separate the two youngsters out, and has agreed to the enclosures.

I'm thinking of building along the lines of the PVC enclosures described in "Building your own expanded PVC enclosed chamber". So, two separate terrariums. And I'm trying to source the necessary material locally.

My current questions are:
1. If we build a wood frame to give support to the floors, do you think that these would be stackable. So, put one on top of the other?
2. Any risk of fire hazard?
3. The design appears to have no air passing through it. The terrarium we bought when they hatched (in our garden) has a mesh strip at the front and another on the top. I've always assumed that this draws fresh air in as hotter air from inside the terrarium will rise and escape through the top mesh. So, it no ventilation necessary?

Once I can clear the above up, I think I'll need some advice on heating, UVB, and basking. It's true that while we've a good tortoise vet (or two), we get pretty much no useful advice from stores selling the above.

Big thanks again -
Dave CH
 
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