help with fracturing eggs!

[lvstorts]

Uggh! So my eggs that were laid on the ground (Christmas 2010) developed embryos and blood vessels have now developed fractures! 2 of 4 have fractured. Both through the shell and the membrane is intact. I've glued the fracture so it won't get worse but I'm at a loss why this is happening...I've never had fractures with buried eggs.

Could it be as easy as the shells are weak from being on the ground? Too much moisture?

I'm incubating at 84F, 80% humidity, 2 inches of moistened vermiculite, and 1 inch of Spagnum Moss.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Tom]

There are several people here who can answer this question...

I'm not one of them.

I think I recall one of them saying that excessive moisture can cause the eggs to swell and break. I also remember them saying some extra moisture just before hatching actually helps them hatch.

I'm sitting on a whole bunch of eggs right now, so I'm eagerly awaiting a response too.

 

[Laura]

not enough calcium for the mother?

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Just the other day.. believe it or not.. I was talking with.. [ or should I say I was listening to ].. Tom Crutchfield. And he elaborated on how important it was to not provide too much humidity in the incubator. He also said we can always ADD humidity at the first sign of a pip...... even as early as that micro "spider-web" lookin' little break.. just before the actual pip ---- that's the time to increase the humidity! I told him I agreed and have experienced that actual happening a number of times.

I have actually placed a damp paper-towel directly on the egg(s) at around 100+ days.. and have experienced little if any negative results. Less than 20% of the hatchlings had alarming yolk-sac sizes.. in fact the few that did, absorbed just as quickly as all of the others.

To answer your question --- too much humidity.

Your temps are perfect! Ever wondered why when boiling chicken eggs how some 'fracture' and some don't? I have.. could it be there's too much humidity ( absorbed ) inside the egg because of a hair-line fracture that erupted as a result of being "cooked"???

Terry

 

[dmmj]

well to answer the chicken egg problem I found if I added salt to the pot before I boiled them they don't crack, of course I don't think this will help with tortoise eggs. Neat idea of gluing them I have heard of that before, does it work?

 

[cdmay]

Sounds like too much humidity or a sudden dramatic increase in moisture.
Superglue works quite well at repairing the cracks.

 

[Tim/Robin]

Dry out the substrate, but keep the ambient humidity up around 80%. Cracks typically develop from too much mositure in the substrate. Eggs will absorb moisture from the substrate but not so much from the ambient air. Place them on dry vermiculite and use a separate dish of water inside the incubator but not in contact with the egg to maintain the humidity.

 

[lvstorts]

Thank you Tom and Tim, your answers really helped! I was under the impression the vermiculite needed to be moist to maintain humidity. Just goes to show, there is so much to continuing learning! Every book I have says moist vermiculite!

I replaced the vermiculite this morning with dry stuff and I'll add a dish of water to the incubator and see what happens. Hopefully this will take care of it.

Thanks again!

PS: Tyler0912 - I don't think you meant to post your response in this thread, you may want to move it or post seperately so people will respond directly to you.

 

[Tom]

Terese, I use "moist" vermiculite, but the moisture levels are different for different species. The ratio is use for mine is 1:1, water to vermiculite by WEIGHT. This is hardly any water since vermiculite weighs almost nothing. I'll sprinkle a little more water into the vermiculite 2 or 3 times during a 3 month incubation period, but that's by feel. When I see a pip, I add a little more. I also used shoe boxes with the lids on and 4-6 1/4" holes in the boxes. I use the Hovabator and Little Giant incubators typically and I also fill the little water channels in the bottom of them with water for even more humidity. I haven't done it nearly as much as some of these other guys (like Tim/Robin), but it has worked for me, so far.

I think some of the Testudo species need it drier during incubation and several people can tell you about the box turtles and redfoots. Terry K (Redfoot NERD) has incubated all of them and he's always been very helpful with me.

 

[GBtortoises]

I've actually experienced egg fracturing with land and semi-aquatic turtle eggs moreso than with tortoise egg. I believe that was due to using an incubation medium that was too wet. I think it's due more to the actual incubation medium than it is to the ambient humidity level in the incubator, to a point anyway. Obviously, too much ambient humidity is not good either. Eggs are micro-porous. Generally speaking the softer the outer shell, the more porous an egg is. Being porous allows oxygen in and gases out. An egg has to breath to survive. I think when you surround them with a medium that is too damp you not only cause the egg to absorb more moisture than it can hold, but you're also in effect suffocating the embryo. by not allowing gas exchange.

I had that same problem when I kept and bred Redfoots. In the beginning I was keeping the eggs way too damp in the incubator. The first few clutches didn't survive because of my mistake. With the Testudo that I now keep the eggs are in a somewhat dry medium, with very low moisture content. I use two different methods, both with good results: Some I completely bury about an inch deep in containers that have several holes drilled in the sides for air movement. I mist the tops of those containers almost daily to add moisture to the medium, being careful to not saturate it. Others I bury with just the tops showing in a looser, more dry medium. Which I do occasionally mist. Once these pip I mist them heavily until they are completely free of the egg. Regardless of which method, I do not immediately remove the newborns from the incubator. I pull them out daily to water (soak) them but keep them for about 3-4 days in the incubator in a container of sphagnum moss that I mist twice daily. I have found them to be more active and stronger than back when I used to pull them right out of the incubator and place them in an enclosure with lights and heat and everything. I also crumble up their eggshells and lay on the top of the moss. On several occasions I've seen newborns consuming their eggshells presumably to obtain the calcium and protein. I've also found that the hatchlings that come out of the fully buried eggs come up with their yolk sacs completely absorbed and much more active and agile. They're bodies are rarely ever still "folded" as with the tortoises that hatch on top of the medium. Probably much more like they would hatch in nature. But in captivity the buried eggs method isn't an exact science because they aren't in true nest with an air pocket as they would be in nature. It needs to be constantly monitored and things can go wrong if you're not careful. Regardless of which method, the ambient humidity within my incubators ranges from about 60-70%.

 

[Tim/Robin]

I have had great luck with a product called Hatchrite. You can buy it in small bags online. The stuff is amazing. It does a good job keeping the humidity up but is dry. Living in dry Idaho, I still have a small Glad container with water inside the incubators. I also use a good quality hair hygrometer. I don't think you will go wrong with dry vermiculite and a container of water. Depending on how many eggs you have or will have, the Hatchrite may be a good substitute. I think it is well worth the money.

 

[GBtortoises]

Tim-I've seen Hatchrite being sold on a few of the reptile supply sites. What is it made of?

 

[Tim/Robin]

Gary, I don't really know what it is made of. It is like perlite but seems to be made of something that helps maintain humidity. I have read a lot of good things with people using it inside closed containers for snake and gecko eggs. I have had good results with it. I like it so well I bought the 20lb breeder bag. Before I was using vermiculite. Now I use this exclusively. Here is the website about it. http://www.hatchrite.com/

 

[ALDABRAMAN]

Terese, I use "moist" vermiculite, but the moisture levels are different for different species. The ratio is use for mine is 1:1, water to vermiculite by WEIGHT. This is hardly any water since vermiculite weighs almost nothing. I'll sprinkle a little more water into the vermiculite 2 or 3 times during a 3 month incubation period, but that's by feel. When I see a pip, I add a little more. I also used shoe boxes with the lids on and 4-6 1/4" holes in the boxes. I use the Hovabator and Little Giant incubators typically and I also fill the little water channels in the bottom of them with water for even more humidity. I haven't done it nearly as much as some of these other guys (like Tim/Robin), but it has worked for me, so far.

I think some of the Testudo species need it drier during incubation and several people can tell you about the box turtles and redfoots. Terry K (Redfoot NERD) has incubated all of them and he's always been very helpful with me.

I do almost the same as Tom, with some minor variances. I have never seen one crack like that. I have some that had a small crack, meaning a small round crack, like where it was dropped during laying. They hatched without complication as long as the inner coating was not compromized. I just put the crack side up from the start. Ours are kept in high humidity at 86f.

 

[Nay]

Wow! are all those full of Aldabra eggs????
How cool is that??

 

[lvstorts]

Thank you everyone for your input! I have drained all the water, replaced the vermiculite with dry stuff and the incubator is 84F and 82% humidity, no new cracks today and working to get the humidity to a happy 80%.

I'll keep you posted on the progress, hopefully the embryos are still safe!

I'll do some research on the Hatchrite as well.

 

[ALDABRAMAN]

I've actually experienced egg fracturing with land and semi-aquatic turtle eggs moreso than with tortoise egg. I believe that was due to using an incubation medium that was too wet. I think it's due more to the actual incubation medium than it is to the ambient humidity level in the incubator, to a point anyway. Obviously, too much ambient humidity is not good either. Eggs are micro-porous. Generally speaking the softer the outer shell, the more porous an egg is. Being porous allows oxygen in and gases out. An egg has to breath to survive. I think when you surround them with a medium that is too damp you not only cause the egg to absorb more moisture than it can hold, but you're also in effect suffocating the embryo. by not allowing gas exchange.

I had that same problem when I kept and bred Redfoots. In the beginning I was keeping the eggs way too damp in the incubator. The first few clutches didn't survive because of my mistake. With the Testudo that I now keep the eggs are in a somewhat dry medium, with very low moisture content. I use two different methods, both with good results: Some I completely bury about an inch deep in containers that have several holes drilled in the sides for air movement. I mist the tops of those containers almost daily to add moisture to the medium, being careful to not saturate it. Others I bury with just the tops showing in a looser, more dry medium. Which I do occasionally mist. Once these pip I mist them heavily until they are completely free of the egg. Regardless of which method, I do not immediately remove the newborns from the incubator. I pull them out daily to water (soak) them but keep them for about 3-4 days in the incubator in a container of sphagnum moss that I mist twice daily. I have found them to be more active and stronger than back when I used to pull them right out of the incubator and place them in an enclosure with lights and heat and everything. I also crumble up their eggshells and lay on the top of the moss. On several occasions I've seen newborns consuming their eggshells presumably to obtain the calcium and protein. I've also found that the hatchlings that come out of the fully buried eggs come up with their yolk sacs completely absorbed and much more active and agile. They're bodies are rarely ever still "folded" as with the tortoises that hatch on top of the medium. Probably much more like they would hatch in nature. But in captivity the buried eggs method isn't an exact science because they aren't in true nest with an air pocket as they would be in nature. It needs to be constantly monitored and things can go wrong if you're not careful. Regardless of which method, the ambient humidity within my incubators ranges from about 60-70%.

Great reply.

 

[TylerStewart]

Tim-I've seen Hatchrite being sold on a few of the reptile supply sites. What is it made of?

Hatchrite has the water crystals in it that are commonly used as a water source for crickets (looks like jello). You can buy the dry crystals and add water and they swell, etc. I'm sure most of you know what I'm referring to. They just mixed those with perlite to make Hatchrite (from my understanding). They do help retain moisture well, and reabsorb water once dried out. I used to use the crystals all the time with crickets and roaches.

The crystals were originally made as a dust control method for dirt roads, runways and heli landing pads. They'd sprinkle the crystals out on the ground, then when the water truck hit them, they'd absorb water and keep the ground wet longer. Once they were determined to be safe, the reptile people raided the idea and now they're mostly used as insect water.