Holy cow...read this...

Maro2Bear

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I guess I’m also wondering if this initial comment is from the FB tort page...

DO NOT SOAK YOUR TORTOISE DAILY!

(Even I learned something new today. I stand corrected. For all those I adviced about soaking, please read further)
 

TammyJ

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DO NOT SOAK YOUR TORTOISE DAILY!

(Even I learned something new today. I stand corrected. For all those I adviced about soaking, please read further)

‼Routinely soaking sulcata tortoises is wrong and unnatural. Daily soaking should only take place if there is a specific medical reason for doing so‼
The reason soaking is recommended by some, as I understand it, is to prevent pyramiding, an abnormal distortion of the tortoise’s carapace that is characterized by deformed, pyramid-shaped scutes.
The typical recommendation is that the tortoise soak in shallow warm water for 15 to 30 minutes anywhere from once a day to multiple times a day.
There is no scientific research to support the idea that soaking the plastron really does anything to stop pyramiding.
What does happen frequently is that the animal defecates in the water when soaking. If this happens several times a day or several times a week, you are interfering with the animal’s natural digestive transit time. The food is passing through the gut too quickly. Bad husbandry hinders the fermentation time needed to obtain the ultimate value of all the nutrients.
Keep a pan or saucer of water at the cool end of the enclosure; the tortoise will use it when it needs to drink or wants to soak.
‼Soaking is an unnatural, artificial solution to an unnatural, artificial problem caused by unnatural, artificial husbandry and habitat‼
In fact, this may well be a contributing factor to pyramiding. The scutes (keratin) absorb a lot of water and become very soft. The expansion and contraction of the keratin causes a lot of stress on the underlying bone. In an indoor enclosure, if the habitat temperature is high and the humidity is too low, the keratin can contract (dry out) too fast, causing the carapace bone structure to be drawn upward. The more dry the keratin becomes, the thicker it becomes, so up it goes, creating more stress to the carapace bone to follow. Get the temperature and humidity under control!
On a personal note, I believe now that it is more important to keep a proper humidity level than putting tortoise in water. We can regulate the humidity with a humidifier (olx, Lazada, I use Crane humidifiers) and a hygrometer.
This sounds like ( ) to me.
 

Maggie3fan

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Hhhmmmm. Are you mad at the FB tortoise site or this TFO site.
Not mad at anybody. Just over reacted to hostile insults and stupidity. I've been so good on the sites that I'm on, trying to be nice and change my reputation...But they pulled my chain, and heaven knows that's easy to do to me...so I tried to be adult about it and left. I have disagreed with experienced keepers publicly here, but we state our sides and move on, no name calling or insults. Oh...I was told I was "quibbling over semantics"...HA
 

TammyJ

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Nor is there scientific evidence that it causes harm. I do not believe this. My tortoise does not over poop from soaking, and he soaks himself many days.
Just this last weekend I was worried because my normally voracious redfoot stopped eating and just kind of sat around looking miserable. A nice long warm soak and you should have seen the poop parade! And the eating binge after all that. Thanks to the advice re soaking on this forum!!!
 

SPILL

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‼Soaking is an unnatural, artificial solution to an unnatural, artificial problem caused by unnatural, artificial husbandry and habitat‼
Solution is the key word. By the same token it could be said that basking lights and UVB bulbs are unnatural solutions to unnatural problems but nobody's rallying against using them.
 

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Once you take an animal out of its natural habitat and desire to keep it alive and thriving (whether in a zoo or as a pet), you begin the task of reproducing its environment as best you can. Unfortunately, this means a lot of artificial tricks are employed. Some are probably critical (appropriate food items, correct temps, & humidity), some are fairly important (exercise, mental stimulation, breeding opportunities), and some are seemingly insignificant (blue sky up above, wind). It seems smart to always keep an open mind (husbandry has changed significantly in the last 50 years), but to especially pay attention to the advice and recommendations of long-term, successful keepers/breeders. I'm not dissing Facebook (I'm not a user) but I honestly doubt you're going to be exposed to the best herpetological advice from people dedicated to the relentless and endless posting of selfies and emojis.

However, I could be wrong...
 

Tom

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Nor is there scientific evidence that it causes harm. I do not believe this. My tortoise does not over poop from soaking, and he soaks himself many days.
Very good point. I thought of this after I posted and had to leave this morning.

There is no scientific evidence that I like pizza either. Not one scientist has come here to study this fact. Doesn't make it untrue, and there is certainly a lot of obvious evidence to support my claim.
 

Tom

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Once you take an animal out of its natural habitat and desire to keep it alive and thriving (whether in a zoo or as a pet), you begin the task of reproducing its environment as best you can. Unfortunately, this means a lot of artificial tricks are employed. Some are probably critical (appropriate food items, correct temps, & humidity), some are fairly important (exercise, mental stimulation, breeding opportunities), and some are seemingly insignificant (blue sky up above, wind). It seems smart to always keep an open mind (husbandry has changed significantly in the last 50 years), but to especially pay attention to the advice and recommendations of long-term, successful keepers/breeders. I'm not dissing Facebook (I'm not a user) but I honestly doubt you're going to be exposed to the best herpetological advice from people dedicated to the relentless and endless posting of selfies and emojis.

However, I could be wrong...
Very good points, and I'll go one further. According to Tomas Diagne, raising them even IN there natural environment is problematic without adding significant moisture. He related a story to me about the babies he was raising at his sanctuary in Senegal. Most the babies were having eye problems and getting dehydrated until they added sprinklers and water sources to the large outdoor enclosures. They were trying to do it "all natural", but it wasn't working because to was too dry.

I suppose this also goes back to the number of babies that die in wild for every one that survives to maturity.
 

Relic

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Very good points, and I'll go one further. According to Tomas Diagne, raising them even IN there natural environment is problematic without adding significant moisture. He related a story to me about the babies he was raising at his sanctuary in Senegal. Most the babies were having eye problems and getting dehydrated until they added sprinklers and water sources to the large outdoor enclosures. They were trying to do it "all natural", but it wasn't working because to was too dry.

I suppose this also goes back to the number of babies that die in wild for every one that survives to maturity.
I would postulate that the average breeder would be heartbroken to experience the typical "hatchling-to-1-year-old" losses in his own clutches that occur in the wild...
 

Maggie3fan

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I guess I’m also wondering if this initial comment is from the FB tort page...

DO NOT SOAK YOUR TORTOISE DAILY!

(Even I learned something new today. I stand corrected. For all those I adviced about soaking, please read further)
Yes...I am not very talented with computers and don't use a Smart fone, so I did.t realize that I didn't copy it all....sorry
 

ZEROPILOT

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Not mad at anybody. Just over reacted to hostile insults and stupidity. I've been so good on the sites that I'm on, trying to be nice and change my reputation...But they pulled my chain, and heaven knows that's easy to do to me...so I tried to be adult about it and left. I have disagreed with experienced keepers publicly here, but we state our sides and move on, no name calling or insults. Oh...I was told I was "quibbling over semantics"...HA
You have been very calm, lately.
Everybody gets P.O.ed about something.
Your friends here get it.
 
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ZEROPILOT

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I would postulate that the average breeder would be heartbroken to experience the typical "hatchling-to-1-year-old" losses in his own clutches that occur in the wild...
True.
If we truly duplicated their native experience, very few would live to adulthood.
 

Kapidolo Farms

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Soaking sounds like a 'forced' thing the way that FB original poster worded their concern. I set tortoises in shallow water that they can walk out of, i do this near daily. Baby tortoises are a bit dumb, they can dehydrate sitting inches away from a shallow dish of water. They will sit and drink or walk out of the water as they see fit to. The water is enclosure warm, most shallow water trays are placed to be kept warm by the RHP in the enclosure. That in itself will encourage them to sit in the water.

I would venture a guess that the FB OP drown a few little guys and so found an emotional depth to hate soaking. As far as what happens in nature, that is alway the argument of people who don't understand deep time. I can assure you all that sometime in the history of sulcatas being sulcatas they sat in rain accumulation ponds with high frequency for long periods of time.
 

Tom

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I would postulate that the average breeder would be heartbroken to experience the typical "hatchling-to-1-year-old" losses in his own clutches that occur in the wild...
I think the average breeder would be heartbroken if they realized how many of their babies die in their first year because they don't start them right...
 

Blackdog1714

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Well http://www.tortoise-tracks.org/wpto...rt-tortoise/lifecycle-of-the-desert-tortoise/ says that HATCHLINGS ARE ABOUT THE SIZE OF SILVER DOLLARS. THEIR SHELLS ARE SOFT AND COMPOSED MOSTLY OF SCUTES. FEMALE TORTOISES DO NOT PROVIDE CARE FOR THEIR YOUNG. ONLY 1 TO 5 OUT OF EVERY 100 HATCHLINGS WILL SURVIVE TO ADULTHOOD. Maybe the INNERWEB can help! Heaven forbid humans work to make the mortality rates much lower with intelligent care!
 

Tim Carlisle

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