Housing young Russian/Herman

[tortangtalong]

@Alex and the Redfoot @Littleredfootbigredheart

Hi again! Reporting back. Switched the che to a wide dome and moved it more towards the center of the enclosure. I also moved the probe to be in the corner near the plastic hide I have.

The thermostat plugged into the che is set at 80 degrees. And the basking light heats the basking slate to 95 degrees. That side of the enclosure does read warmer (90-93 degrees) which I hope is fine because of the basking light? Not sure if I should look into a dimmer?


I want to experiment with humidity this weekend. Right now the enclosure is at 60% without me doing anything. I've read for humidity some will pour water at the corners of their enclosure and spray down the enclosure in the morning. What do you both do/recommend for the best method of boosting up the humidity.

It's all becoming so real!! Getting our little one in three weeks.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

@Alex and the Redfoot @Littleredfootbigredheart

Hi again! Reporting back. Switched the che to a wide dome and moved it more towards the center of the enclosure. I also moved the probe to be in the corner near the plastic hide I have.

The thermostat plugged into the che is set at 80 degrees. And the basking light heats the basking slate to 95 degrees. That side of the enclosure does read warmer (90-93 degrees) which I hope is fine because of the basking light? Not sure if I should look into a dimmer?


I want to experiment with humidity this weekend. Right now the enclosure is at 60% without me doing anything. I've read for humidity some will pour water at the corners of their enclosure and spray down the enclosure in the morning. What do you both do/recommend for the best method of boosting up the humidity.

It's all becoming so real!! Getting our little one in three weeks.

Hello!
To me temperatures look fine (if the cool end is around 80F). You can lower the basking lamp a bit to reach 98-100F at the basking spot (leave thermometer probe for an hour or so to check).

Pouring water in substrate works best for me. Spraying doesn't have prolonged effect. You need a humidity gradient 60-80% across the enclosure and sounds like you have already managed it.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Hello!
To me temperatures look fine (if the cool end is around 80F). You can lower the basking lamp a bit to reach 98-100F at the basking spot (leave thermometer probe for an hour or so to check).

Pouring water in substrate works best for me. Spraying doesn't have prolonged effect. You need a humidity gradient 60-80% across the enclosure and sounds like you have already managed it.

Second everything said here, your temps sound good, and the pouring method does definitely work best, I say this as someone who used to mist the enclosure to up keep it, lasted no where near as long and left the substrate too dry underneath, a damp under layer after a pour can last weeks in a good closed chamber

 

[sbuh04]

Hello there!

In this thread, I’m going to include some information on an effective way to tackle a starter set up/a way you can build a bigger size once your baby is an adult.

I know it looks a lot to go over, I like to make sure all bases are covered, I’m happy to break down any information as and where needed, just ask!

Care advice for these guys is painfully behind, fb pages, YouTube, pet stores, they’re all repeating the same outdated advice, this forum is made of people who have spent years finding the best ways to care for them that actually result in healthy tortoise, I’ve taken the knowledge of these lovely folks, and applied into this thread.

I’m going to cover the types of equipment to use, how to maintain humidity, and a cost effective way for you to get a suitable sized enclosure, hopefully it helps inspire some ideas

I’ve included indoor uv, but if you’re in a climate you’re able to get them out for a few hours of natural sunlight, in a secure outdoor space, you probably won’t need it. Just make sure any outdoor space isn’t getting too warm/cool and provides plenty of shade.

Some of the equipment examples will vary from location to location with brands etc, however with the indoor UV, the examples shown are generally the only two brands you’ll want to go for. Cheaper alternatives are unreliable and sometimes dangerous. I’m from the uk so some of my examples reflect that.

Basking light should be an incandescent floodlight(examples attached) on a 12 hour timer.

Basking temperature directly under the floodlight should be 95-100f. The rest of the enclosure should be ranging 75-80 during the day.

You may also wish to add ambient lighting on the same timer, providing shady areas with hides and safe plants. This can be simple screw in LEDs or LED strip lights, generally the recommend colour range is 5000k-6500k.

Then CHE/CHE’s(ceramic heat emitters) always on a thermostat, for night heat if your house drops below 60’s at night. They are a non light emitting bulb. Set the thermostat for a night temperature place the probe in their cooler end, plug the CHE into it and the thermostat into the mains, it’ll be plugged in 24/7 but will only turn on when the temperature drops. When in a cooler climate you’ll probably need them. If not, do temperature checks at night to see if they’re needed.

Large wide(not deep) domes with ceramic fittings will help project heat down, just don’t solely rely on the clamps that come with them, always hang them securely.

Any indoor Uv should be a t5 fluorescent tube, avoid the compact and coil uv bulbs, they don’t give out enough uv and can hurt the tortoises eyes. The uv can be on a 4 hour timer from noon. The Arcadia proT5 kit 12% comes with the reflector fitting, the reptisun needs it buying separately.

With lighting always avoid anything labelled halogen or mercury vapour.

For substrates, either coco coir, dampened and packed down by hand as a base, with a layer of orchid bark or forest floor on top, or just the orchid bark/forest floor. Never use anything with sand mixed in, no top soils and no kinds of moss. The trouble with top soil is you don’t know what kind of plants have gone into it unless you composted it yourself, they could be toxic. Sand and moss are impaction/ irritant risks.

For humidity to last, you want to aim to have the bottom layer of substrate damp, to do this pour lukewarm water into the corners, not loads but enough to dampen the entire bottom layer. To stop that top layer getting too dry (you don’t want dusty substrate), mix the substrate now n then, which also helps boosting humidity and give the top a spray. Check your monitors and substrate to do the pours as and when needed. I don’t recommend misters or foggers, they get the air too wet and cause respiratory problems. Just spraying on its own won’t last as long.

Humidity for young growing tortoises needs to be maintained around 80%+ all over 24/7, you’ll find that difficult to achieve with an open top, even if you’re from a naturally humid environment, it can be hard to mimic the levels a hatchling needs indoors without a top. For the set up I’m recommending I’d get a greenhouse cover. Once the tortoise is older a cover won’t be needed.

To maintain humidity whilst the tortoise is younger a greenhouse style set up works well and provides more space, as an adult they are going to ideally need a minimum of an 8x4 foot space, the bigger you go the better, it’s ideal if you can build your own base to go as big as you can for the room you have. A 4x2 or 4x4 will last until they’re a bit bigger

Size wise you’ll still have so many people recommending far too small a set up for adults, Don’t think they can get away with smaller if allowed to free roam, I’d highly discourage indoor free roams, being away from their heat source means they’re being exposed to temperatures that are too low quite often, smooth surfaces like laminate flooring will wreak absolute havoc on their hip joints over time.

There’s just numerous reasons it isn’t a good idea, harmful floor cleaners, foreign objects being swallowed, getting stuck under things they shouldn’t like shelving or sofas, low temperatures, no uv, getting hit by doors, one member has mentioned they knew someone who’s tort got their head crushed in a door jam, flipping hazards, smooth services, the list goes on and is endless.

They feel most comfortable and safe in a space that best mimics their natural environment, our homes don’t.

They don’t have reasoning skills to understand why they are uncomfortable somewhere, they just want to explore, which is why an appropriate size is so important, it helps build their muscle strength and aids in digestion. They’d walk miles in the wild!

Even outdoor free roaming isn’t a good idea for safety, they should always be somewhere secure.

If you can’t find an exact fit for your base with the cover, then place it over like the one with the white base in one of the photos, I’d put lining down under the base and cover though to stop condensate getting on your floor.

When making your base, just make sure the material is safe, some use flower beds or just make their own, for both these options I’d line with cheap pond liner to protect the base, making sure the liner goes up the sides too and make sure those sides are deep enough to prevent escapes.

Some people even hang their lighting from the greenhouse frame!(if it feels sturdy enough) Simply wrap the wire round so it’s at the height you need(check with temp gun/put thermostat in, 18-21 inches from top of tortoises shell for uv I recommend) then secure with cable ties&chains.

I’ve also included examples of stands people make/buy.

For a water dish a shallow terracotta saucer is considered safest, they have grip in the event your tortoise flips themselves, most pet store options are a known hazard.

If going for this set up, allow up to a week for the materials to ‘off gas’ with the heat running, until there’s no smell, once odourless, it’s safe for use

Ignore whatever else is in these enclosures in the photos, they’re just to give you an idea

I’d also always recommend getting your hands on a temp gun to check your monitors are reading correctly.

Have digital monitors that measure both temp and humidity, the gauge ones can be inaccurate.

For the diet side of things, avoid fruits, You want to stick with leafy greens and weeds for these guys, perhaps some of you will find this link below useful, maybe you could get some seeds offline and plant into organic soil(no fertilisers or chemicals) in a planter the tortoise doesn’t have access to, forage them as they growbe very wary foraging elsewhere, you can’t be sure there’s no chemicals and they’re toxic lookalikes so always double check.

The Tortoise Table - Home

The Tortoise Table plant database and resource site for Tortoise owners

www.thetortoisetable.org.uk

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Hi! I saw on a Facebook group that when forest floor is heated it releases a gas from the cedar. Is that true? Looking at this care guide it seems like lots of what I read on there may be incorrect

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Hi! I saw on a Facebook group that when forest floor is heated it releases a gas from the cedar. Is that true? Looking at this care guide it seems like lots of what I read on there may be incorrect

Forest floor substrate is made from cypress mulch not cedar wood
Yeah unfortunately Facebook is a plethora of incorrect and outdated information, it’s made all the more confusing by the fact that some of the information is correct, so it’s easy not knowing which source to truly trust, but we get countless new members following advice from facebook groups, all the common errors causing the same issues
Some of the members on this forum have been on here 15+ years now, they’ve seen it all and many of them house and breed different species, through trial and error, they have discovered the best ways to care for them that actually yield positive results long term. With a lot of these Facebook groups, there’s a lot of new keepers looking for help, being misled by other keepers who stubbornly follow outdated care routines, once problems start to arise from this(it can sometimes take years), many of those new keepers come here looking for advice, before you know it, their tortoises are thriving with the guidance given here

 

[sbuh04]

Forest floor substrate is made from cypress mulch not cedar wood
Yeah unfortunately Facebook is a plethora of incorrect and outdated information, it’s made all the more confusing by the fact that some of the information is correct, so it’s easy not knowing which source to truly trust, but we get countless new members following advice from facebook groups, all the common errors causing the same issues
Some of the members on this forum have been on here 15+ years now, they’ve seen it all and many of them house and breed different species, through trial and error, they have discovered the best ways to care for them that actually yield positive results long term. With a lot of these Facebook groups, there’s a lot of new keepers looking for help, being misled by other keepers who stubbornly follow outdated care routines, once problems start to arise from this(it can sometimes take years), many of those new keepers come here looking for advice, before you know it, their tortoises are thriving with the guidance given here

It’s so hard to know what to believe

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

It’s so hard to know what to believe

If that was truly the case with cypress, we’d see countless issues with it to no end, there’s been tortoises housed on it for decades with no ill effects, the people who made this are probably the same people who would say ‘top soil and sand with a pinch of moss or peat moss’ is best, we’ve seen countless issues with all of these substrates but not with cypress, though don’t get me wrong, in all technicality, every single substrate option out there has its own unique ‘risks’, the longer standing members on the forum have taken years and years to find which substrate options pose the least amount of ‘risk’ as possible(correct care and husbandry goes into this too, for example if there’s a dietary imbalance, they’ll possibly try to eat whatever the substrate is)

Perhaps @Tom can explain this better than I can tbh and reassure you cypress mulch is safe

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

It’s so hard to know what to believe

Well... It looks like a "scare sheet". What do they recommend to use instead?

Reptibark (Douglas fir bark) is widely used without issues for many years by hundreds, if not thousands keepers here. And, what's important used for hatchlings in "closed chamber" enclosures. Any issues should arise pretty quickly. Treated pine bark is often used outside US (as Douglas fir is hard to find in EU/UK) and doesn't cause issues.

Humidity is perfectly held by cypress mulch, orchid bark (Reptibark) and coco husks as well.

Impaction risks - yes. With any kind of substrate it's possible. Even with super-naturalistic wild-nature-mimicking soil mixes. Cypress mulch is riskier than bark as sharp and jagged pieces can cause perforation (cases are rare, though).

Mulches and bark allow burrowing just fine. And unless substrate is kept bone dry - it should not cause irritation issues.

Cedar and pine wood are toxic. Oak is not good too.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Well... It looks like a "scare sheet". What do they recommend to use instead?

Reptibark (Douglas fir bark) is widely used without issues for many years by hundreds, if not thousands keepers here. And, what's important used for hatchlings in "closed chamber" enclosures. Any issues should arise pretty quickly. Treated pine bark is often used outside US (as Douglas fir is hard to find in EU/UK) and doesn't cause issues.

Humidity is perfectly held by cypress mulch, orchid bark (Reptibark) and coco husks as well.

Impaction risks - yes. With any kind of substrate it's possible. Even with super-naturalistic wild-nature-mimicking soil mixes. Cypress mulch is riskier than bark as sharp and jagged pieces can cause perforation (cases are rare, though).

Mulches and bark allow burrowing just fine. And unless substrate is kept bone dry - it should not cause irritation issues.

Cedar and pine wood are toxic. Oak is not good too.

Appreciate your input here Alex! Thank you