How deep does a Russian burrow to brumate?

[Levi the Leopard]

I have read that 40 degrees is an average temperature for them to be at for brumation. I've have read about people putting them in boxes in garages, using the refrigerator or letting them do it on their own outside.

I'd like to make a box that locks for a Russian to brumate on its own outside, safely. I want the bottom of this box to be made of that wire mesh so the tort can't escape and a predator can't get in.

But, How deep does this need to be to allow the Russian to dig to the proper depth to achieve that temperature? Is 12" down good enough?
How do i found out?
Could i dig down and bury temp probes to figure it out?
Is the answer already out there and i just can't find it?

 

[sibi]

That's why I suggested 3 feet deep. But, if you don't get your answer soon, I would check the temp myself, first at 1 feet, then 2 ECT. Btw, when you get your setup done, could you email me your plan and layout?

 

[Levi the Leopard]

You did suggest 3 feet? Sorry, I totally missed it...??

You know once I get it done I'll definitely post about it

 

[Zamric]

WOW! I never suspected it would be 3 feet but that would put it below alot of freeze lines. Here in Dallas any lower than 6" is below pur freeze line!

Guess you should bury that box 3'... or to bedrock, which ever comes first

 

[lynnedit]

You have to let them burrow as deep as they need to to stay well below the frost line. That might be 5-6" in your area, but going deeper give them options. 3' would be very safe, I would imagine 2' or even 20" would even be fine in your area, but others may chime in too.
The tort will go as deep as they need to.


Here is a map
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...wCBT43eJS3xw_7B-sZKqafg&bvm=bv.41524429,d.cGE

 

[Levi the Leopard]

You have to let them burrow as deep as they need to to stay well below the frost line. That might be 5-6" in your area, but going deeper give them options. 3' would be very safe, I would imagine 2' or even 20" would even be fine in your area, but others may chime in too.
The tort will go as deep as they need to.


Here is a map
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...wCBT43eJS3xw_7B-sZKqafg&bvm=bv.41524429,d.cGE

i tried to look at this map, but was unable? was this meant for me??

well i definitely want to give them what they'll need... and here in my area of so cal its hardly ever "too cold".

I guess I can try and do some tests with a buried temp probe. would i actually be looking for the dirt reading to be 40degrees??

---

frost line is a new term for me. thanks for mentioning it..gives me more to google and understand

 

[68merc]

In Southern CA you don't need to worry about a frost line. Just watch where they dig in in the fall. Give them a few days or a week then dig them up and put them in boxes. My garage floor ranges from 35*-50* depending on the weather.
My boxes are Rubbermaid with lots of 1/4" holes. I pack them in with brown paper, the kind used with masking tape from the painting aisle at Home Depot.

 

[lynnedit]

Sorry, the link is an Adobe document. You can search 'map of frost lines USA' and get one to come up. Depending on your area of So Cal, I don't think frost in your area goes much below about 5-7" in extreme years, not much.
Heather, I do think it is a good idea to find out what other Russian keepers do in your area; Murray's example is one.

One of the issues I thought about after my last post with a hide dug deep down can be flooding. If you have solid walls and drainage rock around the edges, it might be ok, but while I doubt rain would percolate up through the wire bottom, what if it did. I think that's why some build them above ground with a heat source to come on at 38-40f.
THat said, I did create a hide by sinking a Rubbermaid (18") into the ground, only about 8" above, with a doorway. On gravel, with a frame and hinged insulated lid on top. This stays dry as a bone even in heavy rains.

Also, they don't always pick they place you want them to to burrow in. They might choose a spot under a Rosemary shrub, for example. Then you would have to move them to the designated garage, shed, or hide.

I think there are a few posts on buried hides, Tom has one, and one other I remember recently. You might do a search on this forum.

 

[Levi the Leopard]

In Southern CA you don't need to worry about a frost line. Just watch where they dig in in the fall. Give them a few days or a week then dig them up and put them in boxes. My garage floor ranges from 35*-50* depending on the weather.
My boxes are Rubbermaid with lots of 1/4" holes. I pack them in with brown paper, the kind used with masking tape from the painting aisle at Home Depot.

very helpful.

also coincides with what i read online

---

Sorry, the link is an Adobe document. You can search 'map of frost lines USA' and get one to come up. Depending on your area of So Cal, I don't think frost in your area goes much below about 5-7" in extreme years, not much.
Heather, I do think it is a good idea to find out what other Russian keepers do in your area; Murray's example is one.

One of the issues I thought about after my last post with a hide dug deep down can be flooding. If you have solid walls and drainage rock around the edges, it might be ok, but while I doubt rain would percolate up through the wire bottom, what if it did. I think that's why some build them above ground with a heat source to come on at 38-40f.
THat said, I did create a hide by sinking a Rubbermaid (18") into the ground, only about 8" above, with a doorway. On gravel, with a frame and hinged insulated lid on top. This stays dry as a bone even in heavy rains.

Also, they don't always pick they place you want them to to burrow in. They might choose a spot under a Rosemary shrub, for example. Then you would have to move them to the designated garage, shed, or hide.

I think there are a few posts on buried hides, Tom has one, and one other I remember recently. You might do a search on this forum.

I started meeting with our local CTTC and plan to ask them details about their russians next month!

I have seen Tom's buried hide. I have thought about doing that as well. But a "russian" sized version.

Can you clarify something for me?
When you say make an above ground box and having a heat source to come on at 38-40 f, what confuses me is this: if the temps in my area go above that (they often do during winter) wont that affect their brumation? last weekend it was 82 in my area. this week its 60 and raining. a few weeks ago our nights dropped into a mid 30. that's a lot of fluctuation! On the day it was 82 the above ground box would have been warm also, right?

I guess this is why I keep assuming I need an "underground" option for a russian to brumate. ??

 

[lynnedit]

The rain and cold temps you could deal with. But the warmer temps could interfere with brumation. We get to the 50's in winter, but rarely warmer, at least not long enough. So not as much of an issue.
Thus, a temp stable place like the garage floor, unheated room in basement (should be below 50, tho), or a below ground enclosure sounds better in your area to maintain more consistent temps. I guess that is why fridges are used.
Sounds like a great idea to talk to CTTC!

 

[Levi the Leopard]

I have read up on refrigeration brumation to the point of my head spinning!

Thanks everyone for all these thoughts to consider..

 

[lynnedit]

Also pm DMMJ, David, one of our moderators. He hibernates his torts in So Cal.

[Not that you will have to use the 'fridge' method, but wine coolers-lol- are good for this too. They have clear doors, and a digital thermometer built in (still want extra thermometers for verification). Jerry Fife mentions this in his the new 'Russian Tortoises in Captivity' book.]

 

[Tom]

Oh Heather. We are in the same boat. I have been researching this topic for the last three years and not found a satisfactory answer. I was about to start one of my big huge threads on it, but I already know the answer I will get. When people are asked, they either say what they think sounds logical, or they say what they do in their area that works for them. The problem is that we are in uncharted territory here. I know the feeling well from my experiments with sulcatas and simulating the African rainy season, instead of the normally advocated "Sahara desert dry" routine.

I am planning a big russian breeding project. Already got my first little russian boy. Here's what I know: Everyone's area is different. Even different areas in your own yard are going to exhibit differing thermal properties. In MY area, I have some boxes that are 2' tall with a 12' layer of dirt over them. So the bottom of the box is 3' from the surface. All winter long these boxes stay within a degree or two of 50. Very stable. Now I'm told by some that 50 is not cool enough for a russian to hibernate properly. Other people near me say they just leave their russian in the back yard and they dig in when its cold, and come up on the 82 degree January days and eat. I ask, "Isn't that bad for them to have food in their gut when the freezing temps return?" I'm told its what they do every year and they are fine. Others tell me their DTs die from this. I had two tegus die this way. They dug in for winter. All good. We had a mid-winter warm spell and they woke up and dug out. When it cooled again they did not dig back in well enough and it killed them. I fear that our sporadic temps will mess with a russian. If you let them dig in on their own, they will only go a few inches down. This will be fine for the cold nights, but on the 82 degree January days, they are going to warm up too much. I feel that an underground box will mitigate, or level out, some of these extremes. I'm planning on building 2' cubes with a lid on top and burying them mostly in the ground for russians. One guy told me, "You don't need boxes. If they want to dig they will dig." Of course he doesn't live in SoCal. I am going to experiment with letting them live outside with my underground boxes, but I suspect that I will need to set up a fridge for winter for them. Using a fridge is certainly the "safe" bet. They will be consistently cold an have no access to food. It won't matter what our crazy SoCal weather does, and they will be safe and inside where rain, cold or hot spells, dogs, raccoons, rats, bugs or anything else can't get to them. Sure they might be able to survive outside, but that does not make it good for them. Our captive attempts at "natural" keeping are a compromise of many factors at best.

I think you and I are on our own Heather. We are just going to have to figure out what works for us HERE, and what doesn't. Lets keep in touch and share experiences. This will greatly shorten the learning curve for both of us and reduce the possibility of catastrophe for either of us. Try and talk to other russian keepers and gain as much experience as you can, but keep it in context. Every situation is a little different. What works for someone 20 miles away for you, might not work for you, or it might work perfectly. There will be some experimentation and temperature monitoring necessary either way. GOOD LUCK!, fellow pioneer.

---

Also pm DMMJ, David, one of our moderators. He hibernates his torts in So Cal.

[Not that you will have to use the 'fridge' method, but wine coolers-lol- are good for this too. They have clear doors, and a digital thermometer built in (still want extra thermometers for verification). Jerry Fife mentions this in his the new 'Russian Tortoises in Captivity' book.]

OOOHHH! I just bought this book but have not read it yet. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[lynnedit]

Perfectly well said, Tom. We just don't know enough about Russians and hibernation in various climates, even their native one, which covers a fairly diverse area, but always on the colder side in Winter. Then try to extrapolate to our own weather and microclimates. It does make your head spin.

 

[Levi the Leopard]

On some levels I am bummed I don't have a 1+2=3 answer for me to copy cat.

On another level I am glad to know that I'm not crazy for NOT being able to find that type of answer.

On the biggest level I'm excited to be a "mini" pioneer and have my own trials and testing to figure this out.

Tom, your expressed thoughts, questions and concerns in your post have been mine. So I was able to relate to it, a lot. The 2' cube under 1' dirt is very similar to one method I was considering. Glad to hear you have had stable temperatures with that.

My goal is to have the "new" Russian pen completed by the beginning of March.

I have decided I'll make a night time lock box for sure...but maybe for now I'll make an above ground box for starters while I experiment and play around with ideas for safe outdoor burrowing next winter (or the one following).