How long does it take for Tortoise to produce D3

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iLykeTuRtL3z

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How long does it take for a tortoise to produce d3 ?? How much do they make ?? How do they make it ?? Does it happen fast or slow ?? How much do they make in an hour of being exposed to sunlight ?

I've always been curious :)
 

cemmons12

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iLykeTuRtL3z said:
How long does it take for a tortoise to produce d3 ?? How much do they make ?? How do they make it ?? Does it happen fast or slow ?? How much do they make in an hour of being exposed to sunlight ?

I've always been curious :)

Ohh, i feel like this is a good question! Do they always have to have the calcium/D3 powder that I use? hehe, sorry to hijack your questions! :p
 

wellington

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Good ?. I am going to hijack also:D, sorry. I was told not to use cal.with D3? To much is bad? To use MVB and only cal. Without D3? Can anyone out there answer all of the above?:shy:
 

Redstrike

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I don't know the time it takes for D3 production to occur at the time of first UVB exposure, but I'd guess (again, personal testament) that it's probably after 10-15 minutes. If you're a graphical thinker, like me, I think of D3 production as an exponential function that eventually asymptotes as the animals "production mechanisms" become saturated.

D3 production in skin involves a lot of chemistry and physics, we expose certain chemicals secreted by skin cells to ultraviolet light, which breaks portions of the chemical apart and synthesizes D3. Essentially, we're harnessing the suns energy to produce a necessary vitamin in our bodies. I believe D3 can be produced metabolically (without sunlight) but the energy requirements are higher and I don't think animals get a lot of returns (D3) on their investment.

You can overdue D3, no doubt, so it's good to be a bit cautious. That being said, I wouldn't abstain from D3 supplements if you use UVB emitting lights as we really don't know how much D3 synthesis your torts are getting from these lights (they mimic the sun, but they are probably quite inadequate!). I run a MVB and still provide my two tortoises with a D3 supplement every 1-2 weeks just to be safe. I use both liquid D3 and Ca powder with added D3 as supplements.

This chart provides a good idea of what dosages you may want to shoot for:
https://sites.google.com/site/tortoiselibrary/nutrition/guidelines-and-dosages
 

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Redstrike's answer is great. The Wikipedia entry for Vitamin D is also helpful if you want more details.

I am not aware of any studies that show how fast it happens. In the wild, they get UV exposure most of the day, but it is not full exposure most of the time (about 10% of the UV still hits the ground even in heavy shade.)

The whole thing is an on-going chemical process- the light triggers these cells, which trigger these chemicals, which triggers this reaction and so on- there are a lot of tiny steps- and in reality- making D3 is not the end of the process as D3 is then used to allow cells to properly absorb calcium.

Excess D is stored in the fatty tissues and released over time- and we really don't have any numbers to put on how much is stored, how long it takes to build it up, or how long it takes to burn it off.

The fact that it is stored makes it dangerous in overdoses. With water-soluble vitamins like B and C, excess just washes out in the system. The fat-soluble vitamins A, D, and E can concentrate in the tissues. It takes kind of a lot of D to overdose on, though, so it really is not an issue (same with E). I think the scare came from vitamin A which is a little easier to OD on for a really stupid reason.

You see- whenever a turtle's eyes get puffy, everyone assumes it is because it does not have enough A- which is sometimes the case, especially for box turtles (who have oddly specific requirements for vitamin A, but most puffy eyes are more likely due to dirty water, etc.). So- ALMOST EVERY turtle and tortoise vitamin and manufactured food added a ton of A to 'be safe'. So, if you use these products and 'high A' foods, you are at some risk.

D overdoses, on the other hand, are rarely seen by vets.
 

cemmons12

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Great answers! But now I question how much A should Cooper be getting? The vet already told be about Ophelia when she went there. She was really lacking that and everything else do to a p*ss poor diet and lighting and heat! Hehe, sorry to ramble on, like normal! :D
 

ascott

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Not that this answers anyones questions :)D)

I know that folks with fair skin get their immediate surface fill of UV rays at about 15 minutes. From the fair skin darker it can take up to 30 minutes...(since I am initially fair skinned at the start of each spring and live in the desert and LOVE LOVE LOVE the sun and being in it as much as humanly possible) I have studied some on the saturation point for human skin---the sun burn that happens is as a result of remaining in the sun past the saturation point---beyond that I got nothing :p
 

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Thanks Redstrike for the great post. I will start adding the calcium with D3, sparingly that is.
 

Redstrike

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wellington said:
Thanks Redstrike for the great post. I will start adding the calcium with D3, sparingly that is.

I don't have exact numbers but, as Madkins said, D3 is fat soluble, so your plan to place D3 into your feeding cycle sparingly is probably smart (concomitantly with UVB lights, no UVB lights would be a different story). I would think once every couple of weeks would probably be okay if you're using an MVB for 6-8 hours/day or a fluorescent UVB bulb as your main lighting 10-12 hours/day. My liquid supplement is 100 IU's per drop, which makes it very easy and much safer (I think) to dose two 5 month tortoises.

This has worked for me so far, but I admit I've only been keeping tortoises for 5 months, placing me far from expertise. I find this logical as my two torts aren't always under the MVB or UVB strip light.
 

iLykeTuRtL3z

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How long should I leave my year old sulcatta in the sun for ?? She had a soft shell and is still hardening
 

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iLykeTuRtL3z said:
How long should I leave my year old sulcatta in the sun for ?? She had a soft shell and is still hardening

Your one year tortoise should have ACCESS to sunshine all day long. The more it is outside, weather permitting, the better. You really can't over do it. Just make sure the tortoise always has access to shade and cooler temps too.
 

Madkins007

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cemmons12 said:
Great answers! But now I question how much A should Cooper be getting? The vet already told be about Ophelia when she went there. She was really lacking that and everything else do to a p*ss poor diet and lighting and heat! Hehe, sorry to ramble on, like normal! :D

Vitamin A is mostly a box turtle issue- most tortoises get plenty in their diet and a pinch of vitamins for insurance probably covers the rest (the chart alluded to earlier includes vitamin A, D, E, etc.) Some vets, however, routinely give vitamin A injections not knowing any better. Do not let a vet give your tort a vitamin A injection until the vet does a blood test so you KNOW what the levels are.

Tom said:
iLykeTuRtL3z said:
How long should I leave my year old sulcatta in the sun for ?? She had a soft shell and is still hardening

Your one year tortoise should have ACCESS to sunshine all day long. The more it is outside, weather permitting, the better. You really can't over do it. Just make sure the tortoise always has access to shade and cooler temps too.

One of the COOLEST things about UVB/vitamin D through the sun and skin is that you CANNOT overdose on it! The body self-limits it, so as long as we allow access to sun, shade, and hides, the tortoise can self-regulate this with no other help from us.

When we speak of D overdoses, they are almost always from vitamins and supplements used to excess (there are not many foods that contain any D to start with, and very dang few have very much in them, so you almost certainly cannot OD that way, either.)
 

wellington

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So now I am confused:p. I was told by the breeder I purchased from not to give vitamin D3. Now, my tort does not get sun in the winter, but does have a MVB for 12 hours a day. I didn't get the best advice from the breeder as far as humidity etc., but not sure if they were correct on the D3 or not. As of now I do not give D3. So was going to start adding it sparingly. Should I add or not? What brand name vitamin (s) does anyone recommend using?

wellington said:
So now I am confused:p. I was told by the breeder I purchased from not to give vitamin D3. Now, my tort does not get sun in the winter, but does have a MVB for 12 hours a day. I didn't get the best advice from the breeder as far as humidity etc., but not sure if they were correct on the D3 or not. As of now I do not give D3. So was going to start adding it sparingly. Should I add or not? What brand name vitamin (s) does anyone recommend using?

I also remember reading that with proper diet and uv lighting or sun light daily is all that was needed except a calcium supplement 2-3 times a week. I know that a lot of the things I have read aren't true, so I need the TFO members advice as that is what I will follow, after weighing all of it together:p
 

Madkins007

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wellington said:
So now I am confused:p. I was told by the breeder I purchased from not to give vitamin D3. Now, my tort does not get sun in the winter, but does have a MVB for 12 hours a day. I didn't get the best advice from the breeder as far as humidity etc., but not sure if they were correct on the D3 or not. As of now I do not give D3. So was going to start adding it sparingly. Should I add or not? What brand name vitamin (s) does anyone recommend using?


I also remember reading that with proper diet and uv lighting or sun light daily is all that was needed except a calcium supplement 2-3 times a week. I know that a lot of the things I have read aren't true, so I need the TFO members advice as that is what I will follow, after weighing all of it together:p




Every animal needs vitamin D to allow it to metabolize calcium, build good nerves and muscles, and for the health of things like deep brain glands, and most find it easier to use D3 rather than the weaker form of D2 which is mostly found in food sources, like mushrooms (having mentioned mushrooms- it is important to note that ONLY mushrooms that were exposed to UV during the growing phase have much of a dose in them- most commercial 'shrooms are not exposed this way.)

There are a lot of rather odd misconceptions about tortoises, especially forest tortoises like Red-footeds, not needing D3. The arguments go something like:
- "They would not get it in the wild, in the deep forest". FALSE. Even in deep forest, if there is enough light to drive green plants, there is enough light to carry the UVB that makes D3 in the skin.
- "Forest tortoises do not bask". FALSE. They have been documented basking in the wild, especially after cloudy or sunless periods.
- "They get enough D in their diet since they eat meat and mushrooms". FALSE. They would have to eat more than their body weight most days to get the right dose from meat or mushrooms, and most of the 'meat' wild Red-footeds eat are termites and butterflies- not huge sources for D.
- "Mine never get any vitamin D or UVB and they are doing just fine". MISLEADING. There are actually several parts to this comment we need to look at.
----- 1. Are you sure they are not getting any UVB? The big, old-fashioned thick fluorescent tubes, for example, emit a pretty decent amount of it. Also- at least some people making this claim live where they keep their tortoises outdoors for several months.
----- 2. Are you sure they are not getting any vitamin D? One keeper has claimed that the cat food he offers has all the vitamin D the torts need in the small amounts he offers- but the dosages of the cat food are too little to really help. Other keepers offer a variety of vitamins, etc. that often have enough D to be OK without the keeper really knowing this.
----- 3. Are you sure they are OK? There have been comments by people who do not use UVB or vitamin D that they are not getting the reproduction they would expect. This may be due to the role of UVB/D in the whole reproduction cycle. Other concerns would be if the bones are really developing correctly, are they living as long as they would otherwise, etc. Without some sort of control group getting the same cares AND UVB, you have no way of knowing this.

It is 100% true that a Red-footed tortoise can live a long time and reproduce even without exposure to UVB lighting or any additional vitamin D beyond what is in multivitamins, prepared diets, and things like mushrooms, but that is a LOT different than saying it is perfectly healthy or happy.

All of that said- they don't need much of it. The common thinking is that about an hour a week, spread over a few days, is perfectly OK. Some keepers go so far as to take them outside on cold but sunny days with a hot pad or whatever to keep them warm as they let the sun do its work.

Others use mercury vapor bulbs tuned to emit UVB, and others use various fluorescent bulbs tuned for UVB (and please make sure it is UV-B, many just say 'UV' and only offer UVA which is helpful but not the key stuff.) I personally prefer using long, low-emission fluorescent bulbs for various reasons, but there are a lot of options here.

Heck, I've even toyed with the idea of replacing a key window in my tortoise room with UVB-transparent plastic but the stuff is expensive and hard to find!
 

wellington

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Now totally confused:(. I have a leopard, 9 mo. his MVB is on 12 hours a day. It lights up 1/2 of his enclosure and he basks under it approx. 10 minutes or so a day. He has a cuttlefish bone, but doesn't eat on it much, but I will crush it about once a week and sprinkle on his food. His diet consists of spring mix, dandelions, endive, mustard greens, collard, bok choy, (Xmas cactus, wandering Jew, prickly pear, all fed sparingly)and grass and clover that grows in his indoor enclosure for him to eat as he decides. Does he need any other supplements?:rolleyes:
 
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