How many tortoises get seriously ill or die as a result of eating "bad" weeds?

tortoisenana

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I work as a vet tech so I've seen numerous interesting cases, one of which being a large Aldabra and Sulcata die after their owners fed them Nicotiana repanda (Fiddleleaf tobacco plant) from the nightshade family. Two of the other Aldabras nearly did not make it, but apparently they did not consume enough of the plant to be fatal.
Maybe I'm just jaded but if a tobacco plant is not good for my tortoise how could I ever believe that it wouldn't be harmful to me? Just saying.
 

Big Charlie

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Maybe I'm just jaded but if a tobacco plant is not good for my tortoise how could I ever believe that it wouldn't be harmful to me? Just saying.
That's why I don't eat iceberg lettuce. When I first got guinea pigs, I was told to never feed them iceberg lettuce, as it is grown with tons of chemicals.
 

Tom

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Maybe I'm just jaded but if a tobacco plant is not good for my tortoise how could I ever believe that it wouldn't be harmful to me? Just saying.

There are many different types of "tobacco" plants. The ones used for cigarettes are different than the ones referred to in the post you quoted.

The thing that always gets me about intentionally inhaling the smoke from a burning dried plant leaf, is when you see on the news how people frequently die of smoke inhalation in fires. Why anyone would want to intentionally inhale any smoke is beyond me.
 

Wolfpackin

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There are many different types of "tobacco" plants. The ones used for cigarettes are different than the ones referred to in the post you quoted.

The thing that always gets me about intentionally inhaling the smoke from a burning dried plant leaf, is when you see on the news how people frequently die of smoke inhalation in fires. Why anyone would want to intentionally inhale any smoke is beyond me.

Well...if you believe the advertising..."Addiction IS a disease".
 

TurtleDream

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I get your point here. It just seems to me like common sense though... We tell the new person to feed lots of weeds of the right type and its just seems obvious to me that they will need to spend some time learning to ID their local weeds and which ones to feed. Many times, I phrase it that way in fact. "You will need to invest some time learning about your local weeds and plants. You can post pics here, look on various websites, and find a knowledgable weed identifier at your local garden center. In time, you'll learn how to recognize the good ones and the bad ones, and your tortoise will thank you by living a long healthy life."

I don't see this as a no-win situation. They got bad pet store advice that will harm or kill their tortoise, and we give them the right info that will help them and keep their tortoise alive and healthy. Is it frustrating, overwhelming or discouraging? Sure it is. I can imagine them spending two hours in the pet store soaking in all the "expert" sounding advice and then spending hundreds of dollars to buy crappy or detrimental products. Imagine my frustration 30 years ago with no internet and few people who had any idea what they were talking about. NO ONE in the entire world could explain the pyramiding thing that we'd been living with for decades. If someone had come along in 1994 and said to me: "Your failing because of this this and this, and here is how to do it correctly…" I would literally have jumped for joy! Sure I would have been pissy about the bad info from the pet store "expert", but that would quickly fade as my new animal began to thrive in the correct conditions. We all had to learn these rings through trial and error. LOTS of error, and lots of animals that suffered and died due to ignorance. Having dozens of knowledgeable people to guide me at every step of the way with every question I could possibly come up with would have literally been a miracle back then. Man, I would have done anything to have a mentor like MarkW, YvonneG, Will, cdmay, or any of two dozen more of the members here on this forum. Holy cow! Type in a question and BOOM! Experience based, helpful, accurate answers in seconds or minutes! That is a win any way you look at it.

I guess this is all a matter of perception. I'm enjoying this topic and discussion. Please dispute and discuss any point you disagree with, or offer me more guidance from your POV. I'd love new ideas about how to better help people and their tortoises. That is my goal, after all, and my bluntness is not always helpful.

I agree with you better safe than sorry, and some of the alarm for us newly caring for tortoises is the confusion on information. Too much is at least enough to read and find out some things. Figure out what learning and a bit of our own common sense can tell us. But like here it says never feed morning glory and wisteria to name a couple but on AZ Exotic Animal Hospital site it says safe to feed tortoises wisteria flowers, and entire plant for morning glory.

That's when it starts getting alarming. What if someone goes just to AZ Exotic, and never has any alarm bells about others saying never feed these as they are toxic and contain wisterin for wisteria and whatever morning glory has? A lot of research is key, and the why's you offer are important, since no one ever says why something is safe. Knowing why something isn't thought to be safe means being able to investigate further and figure out more about that info on AZ Reptile Hospital, & maybe see it's questionable for some of it's content as being too general for multiple reptile species possibly. Just guessing, but my tort ate wisteria two days in a row and went after new growth leaves wildly. Now it's put up on the trellis and hopefully we're no worse for it. Smiles!
 

Ketta

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Is that really true? I don't know and am becoming more and more weighted towards the idea that tortoises are totally different in the way their metabolism treats many items we consider "bad". Another thread going on now was on reducing oxalates and here's a small part of my post...

I was interested because We do hear so much about eliminating dietary oxalic acid and how bad oxalates are, but more and more I don't see why. You, Will are far more of an expert on this than I am, hence my interest. Especially with my recent experience with my sulcatas. I was concerned they were eating so much oxalis, and all I heard was that it was really bad and to be avoided because of its high concentrations of oxalic acid. This thread seemed to directly speak to the binding of calcium with oxalates leaving much less "bioavailable". Because I watched my sulcatas consuming large quantities, and, in particular, by laying female, it was forefront in my mind. She laid her first clutch in March. As a young female she also has been laying eggs with thin shells and many eggs break easily as she lays. I am trying to particularly enhance available calcium for her. The first clutch had several broken shells. Her second clutch was the beginning of May right after the oxalis started taking over in the enclosure. So maybe a week or so of eating oxalis rich grazing. That clutch was even worse despite the Mazuri and cuttlebones. By mid May there was far more oxalis than grass. I though she was done laying eggs and wasn't as attentive to pushing calcium, but was still concerned about the oxalis for overall health. She laid again mid June. So those eggs were forming shells while she was grazing on heavy oxalis content. Her last clutch was the best she's ever laid. Nice thick shells, absolutely no broken eggs!!

When I had an opportunity to speak with the two main vets and the horticulturist for the Behler Center, in noting almost all their greenhouse enclosures had pothos ivy growing everywhere, I asked about why it is listed as harmful with all the oxalic acid and calcium oxalates (raphides). Their response was it is a non-issue with chelonians. Dogs and cats are bothered and get irritations from the raphides, but chelonians are not affected. They were not concerned about the oxalic acid and it was freely available for any grazing of most all their tortoise species.

There is so little known about chelonian diet and metabolism. I think we will find a lot of the cautionary items will turn out to be entirely different in the case of chelonians vs. mammals.

I guess in the meantime, caution is warranted as there are some indeed that are toxic. I am starting to pay more attention to the ingredient that is causing the warning, though.
By Pothos Ivy you mean poison Ivy is it the same?
 

TurtleDream

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By Pothos Ivy you mean poison Ivy is it the same?
iNot sure what you are asking is that true about. True AZ Reptile site says lots of things are safe for tortoises (it's the longest safe list I've ever seen) that others say don't ever feed. Tortoise Eating lots of Wisteria plant for 2 days with no effect did happen also. I too have been researching oxalates, and have found broccoli, cauliflowers, swiss chard, Bok choy, Iceberg lettuce, Sweet Potatoes, Sprouts of any kind, Corn, Cucumbers, Beet Greens ,spinach and other dark leafy greens and most all fruits have loads of oxalates.

The only ones and the best for us regularly really that are low in oxalates are all lettuces basically(not iceburg), mustard greens, kale, and collard greens. Though again, some put kale on the list as high in oxalates but supposedly they only contain 17mg. compared to spinach which is off the charts. They warn about it for people too and say only eat these about two times a week and there's no worries.

The binding of minerals and calcium means the body is robbed of these needed nutrients and cannot absorb them, and for tortoises the grasses and these other safe green with only little once or twice a week of the others ensures their nutrients are their rewards and not their problem. Sounds sensible to me. Thanks for sharing that iceburg is often grown with lots of chemicals. Red leaf lettuce is high on the list as the best for people and pets with low oxalates. Happy day
 
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