How much is too much calcium?

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Livingstone

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Madkins007 said:
Livingstone- one thing to keep in mind in a high-calcium diet is that calcium blocks iron intake. Isn't that a fun fact to make things just a bit more annoying?

If you feed too much collards, kale, cabbage, etc you will have the same problem. I think if the calcium content in her diet was that high I would be seeing an increase in urates?

Besides, I see posts about torts eating whole cuttle bones and they dont suffer any ill effect. Livingstone does not have a cuttle bone.

As a moderator, can you point me in the direction of a link to urates?

Either way, I am doing research into iodine defficiency now. Thanks, and yes, this is a very good thread.
 

Madkins007

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Livingstone said:
If you feed too much collards, kale, cabbage, etc you will have the same problem. I think if the calcium content in her diet was that high I would be seeing an increase in urates?

Besides, I see posts about torts eating whole cuttle bones and they dont suffer any ill effect. Livingstone does not have a cuttle bone.

As a moderator, can you point me in the direction of a link to urates?

Either way, I am doing research into iodine defficiency now. Thanks, and yes, this is a very good thread.

Urates? Heck if I know! :) Among the many powers we mods have, we can turn gold into lead (which is obviously not that helpful), no special knowledge of threads or sites. Anyone else have an idea?
 

Livingstone

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So after many hours of fruitless research, I have not been able to find a decent reference to any information reagarding tortoises, iodine intake and its effects. It is my opinion that if this was a problem then there would be more information. However if anybody can point me in the direction of a good source I would appreciate it.

I did find information on the sulcata station site that pointed out that the grass in the sahel region is calcium rich because of the dry climate and that sulcatas have a high calcium requirement. Im going to stick to my regimen until better information or a more conclusive study has been done.
 

Madkins007

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Livingstone said:
So after many hours of fruitless research, I have not been able to find a decent reference to any information reagarding tortoises, iodine intake and its effects. It is my opinion that if this was a problem then there would be more information. However if anybody can point me in the direction of a good source I would appreciate it.

I did find information on the sulcata station site that pointed out that the grass in the sahel region is calcium rich because of the dry climate and that sulcatas have a high calcium requirement. Im going to stick to my regimen until better information or a more conclusive study has been done.

Ah- you meant info on goiterogens, goiter, iodine deficency, etc. My mistake. Maybe this will help- Iodine is a necessary element in a tortoise diet, and surprisingly high levels seem to be needed in some giant species, I believe mostly for the Galapagos. Galaps fed with too many brassicas, especially cabbage (since it is usually cheap), can develop a goiter. Most other tortoises seem to have a more normal need for the stuff and eating brassicas in moderation does not seem to be an issue.
 

biglove4bigtorts

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This is the reply I posted in the supplementation thread in the Asian tortoise section. It is based on my discussions there, in this thread, and elsewhere in on the TFO forums, as well as my collective knowledge from keeping herps for the last 18+years.



It seems the conclusion is that they do need supplements, but no one can identify what will work across the board as a baseline and what sources are ok to use. Mazuri may have yeilded great results for Len, but would TNT, bee pollen, Repashy, and vitamins/calcium supplements do the same job for me, without the fillers in the Mazuri? IME montane animals are the most sensitive to oversupplementation. I think, based on what I am gathering, my supplement schedule will continue like this:
Monday- fresh foods only
Tuesday-Repashy,TNT, and Bee pollen sprinkled on fresh food
Wednesday- Calcium with D3 and vitamin supplements sprinkled on fresh food
Thursday-Repashy,TNT, and Bee pollen sprinkled on fresh food
Friday-Fresh Foods only
Saturday-Calcium with D3 and vitamin supplements sprinkled on fresh food
Sunday-Repashy,TNT and vitamins sprinkled on fresh food

This is a regime' for use in the cold months when the diet is made up of:
winter squash, chicory, spring mix, turnip greens, mustard greens, kale, collards, beet greens, chard, spring mix, cress, parsnips, arugala, optunia pads, mushrooms, and grated sweet potato.


In the Summer, I will probably swap the D3 calcium with plain calcium and use the Repashy/TNT/bee pollen mixture twice a week, with vitamins supplements twice a week as well.
The diet extends to include: mullein, safoin, clover, white mulberry, borage, nasturtium, rose, brambles, plantains, mallow, hibiscus, shasta daisy, cone flower, thistle, dandelion, violet, marigolds, colocasia, alocasia, grape, berris, figs, the occasional bit of banana, mint, nipplewort, sheppards purse, and other home-grown goods, in addition to the greens in the
 

HLogic

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Just a note here... I don't know of any correlation between urate production and excessive calcium intake. Urates, in this case uric acid, is the organism's mechanism of disposing of nitrogenous waste.

If I'm missing something here, please point me to a reference...
 

HLogic

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A couple of other minor points... The majority of excess calcium is excreted in feces unless there are mitigating circumstances such as disease. http://www.repvet.co.za/health_metabolic_bone_disease_mbd.php (Physiology section, first paragraph).

Phosphoric acid was not to blame for the bone loss in the study of young women drinking sodas. Caffeine was the culprit and was exacerbated by the replacement of milk by soda. http://www.ajcn.org/content/74/3/343.full.pdf (Abstract, Results & Conclusions sections).

Too much calcium? http://www.biomedsearch.com/nih/Influence-calcium-content-diet-offered/15980135.html (abstract).

Calcium carbonate is not "soluble" in water, it is considered very slightly soluble (40 mg/l). It is 'soluble' in acidic solutions in the sense that it's dissociation from the carbonate ions produces calcium ions.

Read the label of your spring mix! Mine has spinach...

And just one other tidbit, collards are brassicas and have half the oxalates as spinach and almost the same as beets leaves and chard. The difference is the ratio of calcium to oxalates.

It's all in the balance...variety is the spice of life!
 

Livingstone

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HLogic said:
Just a note here... I don't know of any correlation between urate production and excessive calcium intake. Urates, in this case uric acid, is the organism's mechanism of disposing of nitrogenous waste.

If I'm missing something here, please point me to a reference...

You aren't noting anything, you are stating that I am wrong. Which doesn't bother me half as much as your ostentatious way of presenting it. But after reading your second post I can see that you are in a league of your own. However, your link to the South African veterinary site is very useful. Dankie meneer.
 

Madkins007

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HLogic said:
A couple of other minor points... The majority of excess calcium is excreted in feces unless there are mitigating circumstances such as disease. http://www.repvet.co.za/health_metabolic_bone_disease_mbd.php (Physiology section, first paragraph).


Too much calcium? http://www.biomedsearch.com/nih/Influence-calcium-content-diet-offered/15980135.html (abstract).

Calcium carbonate is not "soluble" in water, it is considered very slightly soluble (40 mg/l). It is 'soluble' in acidic solutions in the sense that it's dissociation from the carbonate ions produces calcium ions.

Read the label of your spring mix! Mine has spinach...

And just one other tidbit, collards are brassicas and have half the oxalates as spinach and almost the same as beets leaves and chard. The difference is the ratio of calcium to oxalates.

It's all in the balance...variety is the spice of life!
Huh- I did not know Collards were a Brassica, although I knew that mustard and turnips were.

A couple quick questions:

1. In the calcium article- any idea how they determined the 'proper' dose of calcium for the baby torts?

2. Which list of oxalates levels do you use/prefer/trust? What are your guidelines about oxalates in the diet?
 

Yvonne G

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"Too much calcium? Not me, man!!"

calcium.jpg


calcium-1.jpg


calcium2.jpg


(Doncha' just love those back legs in the first shot?"
 

HLogic

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Collards = Brassica oleracea var viridis.

The 'proper' dose is the $64,000 question. I don't know where they got their info but it's the first time I've seen a statement so bold in print! I am in the process of tracking down that answer.

I use several sources, primarily Dr. Duke's Phytochemical & Ethnobotanical Database and the USDA Nutrient Database. They use different assay methodologies providing a comparison and more even playing field when considering dietary constituents.

I don't concern myself with oxalates as every plant from single-celled algae to sequoias have it. All things considered, these animals have a considerable tolerance for oxalates as much of their natural diet contains substantial amounts. I concentrate on giviing a variety of foodstuffs and maintaining hydration. For juveniles and females during laying season, I try to offset any oxalate load by supplying additional calcium in the form of oolitic aragonite w/strontium supplementation and cuttlebone.

As many have said, I am a firm believer in variety, balance and allowing the animals to determine what they will and will not eat. I have seen them eat many things that are either detrimental, anecdotally 'bad' and downright toxic without problem. I have also seen them refuse allegedly wonderfully nutritional food items. Observation of their habits and preferences guides my maintenance strategy.

And to keep 'on thread'... too much (qualitatively) calcium, as with anything, is BAD. How much (quantitatively) is too much, unfortunately, is still an unanswered question...

To stir the pot further, I just came across this article (http://ddr.nal.usda.gov/bitstream/10113/8198/1/IND43620329.pdf) which suggests, emperically, that in Opuntia ~50% of the calcium present is bound in oxalate salts. That brings them from the realm of dandelions down to somewhere between oranges and chicory (ignoring calcium binding by oxalate in those items). Which brings me finally to: Remember that the calcium values reported in most foods are not "available" calcium but total assayed calcium present. And if that wasn't bad enough, I've seen values that differ by as much as 100%. So, use a single resource for comparisons and then only as a guideline for which foods may provide the nutrient you seek. Some science is better than none but none is necessarily absolute.

Ya give yet? C'mon, say "Uncle!". S-a-y it!!!
 

Madkins007

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The guys over at Mazuri make a similar claim that they somehow know the right values, but they have so far chosen to not reply to my requests for either more info, sources, or just plain telling me what the magic numbers are.
 

armandoarturo

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emysemys said:
"Too much calcium? Not me, man!!"

calcium.jpg


calcium-1.jpg


calcium2.jpg


(Doncha' just love those back legs in the first shot?"

HAHAAHa
Lovely pictures!!!
looks like if it was his golden treasure hahaha
He just can not get enough I guess hahahah
 

Livingstone

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As far as I can tell, there is no magic number, bone density, absorbtion rate, and metabolism are all X factors between species, keepers, and climate. Unless Hlogic has a link to something... Everybody has their own opinion, a good friend of mine and herp expert explained that even if the animal was over supplemented with calcium, as long it was healthy and hydrated the excess would be defecated out with no ill effect. AND the effects of too little calcium are considerably worse than those of giving too much.

Good luck to all, I think we have officially beaten this dead horse.
 
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