How old is too old?

[Bbcatcher]

I have a friend who has a make FBT. We were thinking about making an intergrade breeding with my female EBT.

The vet guessed the male FBT was about 50-60 years old (he's WC). When we discussed the breeding, she was curious if he would be too old.

So my question is, is he? Will he still have the desire to breed at that age? I assumed he would, but maybe I'm wrong?

 

[tortadise]

Reptiles never are too old to breed and fertilize. However intergrading purposefully is a different story. Why intergrade and not breed with a pure specimen?

 

[Bbcatcher]

It was just a thought, we figured it'd be a good chance to get some experience; we wouldn't sell the offspring, though.

 

[ascott]

I would not mix it up either....just my personal feelings.

 

[kimber_lee_314]

I have to agree - I believe the subspecies should remain as pure as possible. While there are some crossbreeds that occur in the wild, I believe it should be discouraged in captivity. Why not invest in a female Florida and male Eastern and have some pure babies?

 

[Yvonne G]

Some box turtle species inter-breed in the wild, but Floridas and Easterns are not one of them. I wouldn't do it.

To answer your question, turtles' and tortoises' breeding/fertility capabilities don't diminish with age. A 100 year old tortoise can still have viable sperm or lay viable eggs.

 

[Running Elk]

Some box turtle species inter-breed in the wild, but Floridas and Easterns are not one of them. I wouldn't do it.

To answer your question, turtles' and tortoises' breeding/fertility capabilities don't diminish with age. A 100 year old tortoise can still have viable sperm or lay viable eggs.

Why? If they were pure they'd still be captive bred and therefore unable to release. If one sells a hybrid honestly as what it is, what are the ethical cons of doing it? It seems like a somewhat neutral decision, with no real benefit but also no real detriment. Having them in captivity is unnatural as is, would allowing a hybrid that wouldn't happen due to geographic separation really so bad in a captive situation? Is it health concerns you have? I'm actually curious about this, I don't have a solid opinion on the subject.

 

[wellington]

I have a solid opinion and it shouldn't be done ever, with any species or breed, any animal. I know some have done it and yes the babies are cute. However, why do humans always have to screw things up? The even sadder part, is people will pay good money for a mutt, which just keeps the idiots breeding them. The chances of someone keeping, oh I don't know, maybe 6-10 maybe more? hatchlings is unlikely. They will either sell or give them away. If they don't do that, but do actually keep them, well, then there is going to be more cross breeding and so on.
There are enough "mutts" by stupidity "accidents". Why purposely add to it?

 

[Running Elk]

Well i

I have a solid opinion and it shouldn't be done ever, with any species or breed, any animal. I know some have done it and yes the babies are cute. However, why do humans always have to screw things up? The even sadder part, is people will pay good money for a mutt, which just keeps the idiots breeding them. The chances of someone keeping, oh I don't know, maybe 6-10 maybe more? hatchlings is unlikely. They will either sell or give them away. If they don't do that, but do actually keep them, well, then there is going to be more cross breeding and so on.
There are enough "mutts" by stupidity "accidents". Why purposely add to it?

Well in dogs I definitely agree. My parents adopted a "beagador" (from a shelter) and she is the saddest dog known to man. She has every bad quality of both breeds and now that she is old she suffers for it, by having a body too big for her legs, etc. I have seen people on CL selling the very same mix as a "designer breed". I think about people that breed any two (usually) toy breeds together and sell them for like $2000, and it seems messed up. In dogs, "designer breeds" are usually carelessly thought out, often inherit issues from both breeds, often sold in pet-stores and often associated with 'back yard breeders'. There are also enough dog mutts that if you want a mutt you can get one at a shelter for like $60 and save a life instead of paying $1000+ to support an idiot.

But are there health issues known to hybrid box turtles? If the animal is healthy and the people who keep it treat it how it should be, is the turtle really a "screw up"? As I said, I am neutral on the topic (I guess I'm playing 'devil's advocate' here), but one potential plus is that many states prohibit the sales of box turtles native to the state. Like in VA, you can't sell EBTs, but an EBT x Florida would be legal. And I would figure if people could buy them legally they'd be less likely to just take them from the wild -- I've met people who used lack of captive bred availability as the excuse for pilfering wild turtles. THEN AGAIN, many people who would take them from the wild probably don't have the know-how to keep hatchlings. I have also seen hybrid hatchlings for sale on forums and stuff, and unlike with 'designer' dogs they are usually sold for less, as most keepers desire a pure representation of the species (for example, I have never desired to buy a hybrid). I don't really think the 'mutt endemic' with this species is really even comparable to the sheer amounts of homeless dogs and cats, who both breed prolifically and are owned by a sizable amount of the population, and are often bred for underhanded reasons (pits bred as status symbols, fighting or bait dogs, etc). I see more pure boxies than hybrids, and more people who desire them then homeless ones -- with many that end up in reptile rescues being ones who are very special needs either due to an injury or to years of no lighting of something -- and it seems that even most of those find good homes eventually. The situation is very different than with cats and dogs. Thousands and thousands of cats and dogs are euthanized each year because there are so many homeless ones due to irresponsible breeding, "accidents", and feral animals breeding. I've never heard of a box turtle getting euthanized in a shelter because no one wanted it.

So I don't know. I do think breeding two like-sized subspecies can't be as bad as...say....breeding a dachshund and a golden retriever (seen it), and having a golden body on six inch legs and a chest/belly that drags the floor. That animal isn't built correctly, and therefor cannot function properly, at least in old age it's own body will become painful and it's own existence seems cruel.

I just don't know if I'm convinced it's really "bad", albeit generally unnecessary. Hybrid snakes are somewhat sought after for their often cool coloration and patterns upon hybridizing, while in the tarantula/scorpion/arachnid community hybridizing is strictly considered taboo and trying to sell a hybrid baby would only result in heavy ridicule (however keep in mind that breeding even the same species of tarantulas is still very dangerous for both parents and is a delicate and dangerous procedure.)


Basically less than any point I made is the same question from earlier; is there really a bad reason for the turtle itself? Is it known to cause adverse health problems to the hybrid babies? I've always wondered about that.

 

[Running Elk]

Let me reiterate one sentence (I am an obsessive editor, and I have edited too many times to do it any longer)

"THEN AGAIN, many people who would use lack of local availability as an excuse to take them from the wild probably don't have the know-how to keep hatchlings."

 

[johnsonnboswell]

I don't think one should breed to get experience. Breed for other reasons. If you want a breeding colony, then go for it and acquire more animals. If you want to put your male out at stud...you're taking risks that don't seem justified to me.

 

[Running Elk]

I don't think one should breed to get experience. Breed for other reasons. If you want a breeding colony, then go for it and acquire more animals. If you want to put your male out at stud...you're taking risks that don't seem justified to me.

I actually agree. I think it's best to have a specific reason you want to breed -- then gain experience from that.

 

[AZTorts]

Well i



Well in dogs I definitely agree. My parents adopted a "beagador" (from a shelter) and she is the saddest dog known to man. She has every bad quality of both breeds and now that she is old she suffers for it, by having a body too big for her legs, etc. I have seen people on CL selling the very same mix as a "designer breed". I think about people that breed any two (usually) toy breeds together and sell them for like $2000, and it seems messed up. In dogs, "designer breeds" are usually carelessly thought out, often inherit issues from both breeds, often sold in pet-stores and often associated with 'back yard breeders'. There are also enough dog mutts that if you want a mutt you can get one at a shelter for like $60 and save a life instead of paying $1000+ to support an idiot.

But are there health issues known to hybrid box turtles? If the animal is healthy and the people who keep it treat it how it should be, is the turtle really a "screw up"? As I said, I am neutral on the topic (I guess I'm playing 'devil's advocate' here), but one potential plus is that many states prohibit the sales of box turtles native to the state. Like in VA, you can't sell EBTs, but an EBT x Florida would be legal. And I would figure if people could buy them legally they'd be less likely to just take them from the wild -- I've met people who used lack of captive bred availability as the excuse for pilfering wild turtles. THEN AGAIN, many people who would take them from the wild probably don't have the know-how to keep hatchlings. I have also seen hybrid hatchlings for sale on forums and stuff, and unlike with 'designer' dogs they are usually sold for less, as most keepers desire a pure representation of the species (for example, I have never desired to buy a hybrid). I don't really think the 'mutt endemic' with this species is really even comparable to the sheer amounts of homeless dogs and cats, who both breed prolifically and are owned by a sizable amount of the population, and are often bred for underhanded reasons (pits bred as status symbols, fighting or bait dogs, etc). I see more pure boxies than hybrids, and more people who desire them then homeless ones -- with many that end up in reptile rescues being ones who are very special needs either due to an injury or to years of no lighting of something -- and it seems that even most of those find good homes eventually. The situation is very different than with cats and dogs. Thousands and thousands of cats and dogs are euthanized each year because there are so many homeless ones due to irresponsible breeding, "accidents", and feral animals breeding. I've never heard of a box turtle getting euthanized in a shelter because no one wanted it.

So I don't know. I do think breeding two like-sized subspecies can't be as bad as...say....breeding a dachshund and a golden retriever (seen it), and having a golden body on six inch legs and a chest/belly that drags the floor. That animal isn't built correctly, and therefor cannot function properly, at least in old age it's own body will become painful and it's own existence seems cruel.

I just don't know if I'm convinced it's really "bad", albeit generally unnecessary. Hybrid snakes are somewhat sought after for their often cool coloration and patterns upon hybridizing, while in the tarantula/scorpion/arachnid community hybridizing is strictly considered taboo and trying to sell a hybrid baby would only result in heavy ridicule (however keep in mind that breeding even the same species of tarantulas is still very dangerous for both parents and is a delicate and dangerous procedure.)


Basically less than any point I made is the same question from earlier; is there really a bad reason for the turtle itself? Is it known to cause adverse health problems to the hybrid babies? I've always wondered about that.

When it comes to dogs, just look at what's being done with the purebreds and how many are being ruined. Have you seen the "show ring" German Shepherd Dog? Hideous! Nothing like the working dog. English Bulldog...terrible! They've created a caricature of what that breed started out as. It's sickening.

But when you get right down to it,
"There is no such thing as responsible breeding. Did you know that approximately 25% of dogs taken to animal shelters are purebred? All breeders, whether they are so-called "responsible" breeders, puppy mills or your neighbors next door, contribute to what has become an overwhelming overpopulation problem." Only about 50% of shelter dogs come out alive. Spay and Neuter is the only way to stop the over population. Don't buy while shelter animals die...opt to adopt.

 

[Running Elk]

I don't think all purebreds are travesties, nor do I think that breeding is always bad. It's not the good breeders or people who buy well-bred purebreds who are causing the major problems. And you have to remember, in reference to your purebred statistic, a lot of the purebreds in shelters are pits too, and not everyone wants a pit. I mean, probably a majority. A lot of BYB rescues end up there too, which can be prone to serious health and behavioral problems. Like different reptiles, different breeds can be more likely to fit certain lifestyles and families because of what they were bred for. A herding dog is probably not a great dog for an old woman in a tiny apartment, and a chihuahua is probably not much help on a sheep farm. I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing for someone to want a specific breed and to pursue it, though I strongly encourage them to heavily research a reputable breeder and go see their dogs in their home environment several times before purchasing one -- a good breeder will understand and even encourage and invite you to their home to meet the dogs. If you're seeking a specific breed that doesn't happen to be a pit-bull, recently been in a movie, a popular toy dog, or a hound breed commonly used during hunting season then left behind in the woods, your odds of finding what you're looking for in a shelter are nil, despite that the aforementioned percentage of dogs are purebred. Most people seeking a purebred don't just want a purebred for the sake of snobbery; they usually want a very specific dog, and they usually want to know for sure that it wasn't in-bred in a rabbit-hutch as a fighting dog. There are a lot of factors in why domestic animals are overpopulated, and I think the only people who need to breed are people who want to improve and preserve a breed. The problem is, people breed carelessly for profit, people buying don't look at breeders before they buy/they buy dogs at pet stores, and in the case of pits, tons are bred to be "status symbols" or for blood sport. Those are just two of many bad reasons to breed any animal, and one way that potential pet owners are carelessly supporting a bad cause. A good breeder does it for a love of the animal and likely doesn't profit much off of it, as the care of the animals off sets what they make.

I do encourage people who don't want something specific to adopt. Adopting is always a wonderful option. I just don't agree that it has to be your only option, or that people who purchase an animal from a reputable breeder should be made to feel guilty or are doing anything wrong.



On a side note, what's happening to GSDs is NOT preserving the breed and IS a travesty -- and the AKC has been called out on it on numerous occasions by people concerned for the ethics of this breeding practice.

That dog should NOT be best in show -- it and it's breeder should be disqualified. That back and leg deformity is being more and more exaggerated because it's become more and more desirable in show. Unfortunately there are several breeds being bred horrifically in this same way -- most notable, (as you mentioned) bulldogs, dachshunds, pugs, dalmatians...just to name a few.

I think with a lot of breeds, the further breeding moves away from utility and more towards weird, definitive, and purely aesthetic physical traits, the more the animals tend to suffer. Some breeds are being ruined by the evolving "show standards".

 

[Running Elk]

.

 

[AZTorts]

I don't think all purebreds are travesties, nor do I think that breeding is always bad. It's not the good breeders or people who buy well-bred purebreds who are causing the major problems. And you have to remember, in reference to your purebred statistic, a lot of the purebreds in shelters are pits too, and not everyone wants a pit. I mean, probably a majority. A lot of BYB rescues end up there too, which can be prone to serious health and behavioral problems. Like different reptiles, different breeds can be more likely to fit certain lifestyles and families because of what they were bred for. A herding dog is probably not a great dog for an old woman in a tiny apartment, and a chihuahua is probably not much help on a sheep farm. I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing for someone to want a specific breed and to pursue it, though I strongly encourage them to heavily research a reputable breeder and go see their dogs in their home environment several times before purchasing one -- a good breeder will understand and even encourage and invite you to their home to meet the dogs. If you're seeking a specific breed that doesn't happen to be a pit-bull, recently been in a movie, a popular toy dog, or a hound breed commonly used during hunting season then left behind in the woods, your odds of finding what you're looking for in a shelter are nil, despite that the aforementioned percentage of dogs are purebred. Most people seeking a purebred don't just want a purebred for the sake of snobbery; they usually want a very specific dog, and they usually want to know for sure that it wasn't in-bred in a rabbit-hutch as a fighting dog. There are a lot of factors in why domestic animals are overpopulated, and I think the only people who need to breed are people who want to improve and preserve a breed. The problem is, people breed carelessly for profit, people buying don't look at breeders before they buy/they buy dogs at pet stores, and in the case of pits, tons are bred to be "status symbols" or for blood sport. Those are just two of many bad reasons to breed any animal, and one way that potential pet owners are carelessly supporting a bad cause. A good breeder does it for a love of the animal and likely doesn't profit much off of it, as the care of the animals off sets what they make.

I do encourage people who don't want something specific to adopt. Adopting is always a wonderful option. I just don't agree that it has to be your only option, or that people who purchase an animal from a reputable breeder should be made to feel guilty or are doing anything wrong.



On a side note, what's happening to GSDs is NOT preserving the breed and IS a travesty -- and the AKC has been called out on it on numerous occasions by people concerned for the ethics of this breeding practice.

That dog should NOT be best in show -- it and it's breeder should be disqualified. That back and leg deformity is being more and more exaggerated because it's become more and more desirable in show. Unfortunately there are several breeds being bred horrifically in this same way -- most notable, (as you mentioned) bulldogs, dachshunds, pugs, dalmatians...just to name a few.

I think with a lot of breeds, the further breeding moves away from utility and more towards weird, definitive, and purely aesthetic physical traits, the more the animals tend to suffer. Some breeds are being ruined by the evolving "show standards".

I think we're pretty much on the same page with this. In a perfect world having a nice wide variety of healthy breeds to pick from would be a great idea. But the reality is that dogs are way too often bred for the wrong reasons. Now it's seems a lot of the people who love a particular breed work in rescue for that breed rather than breeding more. So many breeds have rescue organizations for them because even though a dog is purebred, that doesn't mean it won't wind up in a kill shelter. I know several people who do volunteer rescue work for all dogs, not specific breeds. I don't know how they can do it because it is stressful, heartbreaking work. They are heroes. In my area the normal amount of time the rescuers have to try to find a home or a foster for a dog from a kill shelter is three days.

Here are a few statistics:

Approximately 55% of dogs and puppies entering shelters are killed, based on reports from 1,038 facilities across America. Source: National Council on Pet Population Study and Policy - Shelter Statistics Survey


Approximately 71% of cats and kittens entering shelters are killed, based on reports from 1,038 facilities across America. Source: National Council on Pet Population Study and Policy - Shelter Statistics Survey

Over $2 billion is spent annually by local governments to shelter and ultimately destroy 8-10 million adoptable dogs and cats due of shortage of homes. Source: Business Wire Features

An estimated 6 to 8 million dogs and cats are euthanized in shelters each year. Millions more are abandoned, only to suffer from illness or injury before dying. Source: Doris Day Animal League


An unspayed female cat, her mate and all of their offspring, producing 2 litters per years, with 2.8 surviving kittens per year can total 11,606,077 cats in 9 years. Source: Spay USA

In 6 years one unspayed female dog and her offspring, can reproduce 67,000 dogs. Source: Spay USA

I've only had five dogs in my adult life because I keep them until the end. They are not disposable. Of those five, two were purebred. One an Irish Setter the other a German Shepherd Dog. I have two rescue mutts now. It doesn't matter whether a dog is purebred or mixed, they all have emotions and feel fear and pain and none of them should have to die in a "shelter". Until the overpopulation problem is corrected, there is no such thing as responsible breeding.

This is a short video I made a couple of weeks ago after seeing this little shelter dog in a video.

 

[leigti]

Although this thread has gotten off topic of interbreeding turtle species, I think some very good points of been made. I am going to get a German Shepherd guide dog in the next couple years, the schools have difficulty finding good breeding stock that are functional and healthy. Most of the working German Shepherd dogs come from European bloodlines or American breeders that got their dogs from Europe in the first place. We Americans have a way of really screwing up a breed. I hope reptile breeders will look at what has happened to dogs and maybe take action to keep it from happening, overpopulation, health issues etc.

 

[Running Elk]

AZTorts, feral cats add to a lot of overpopulation, at least in my area. I know a lady who goes to my vet that traps them and brings them to be spayed and neutered (she pays for it out of her own pocket) and releases them back into their wild colonies (for better or for worse). There are a few groups who do similar things. It's amazing how prolific of breeders cats are. I've had both purebred dogs and mutts, but all of my cats were adopted or found.


Leigti, I think as a culture Americans tend to be a bit vain/materialistic. In Europe, animal welfare is much more of a concern, and standard pet practices tend to be better. I'm not surprised that GSDs from Europe are better. Here's an example. Ferrets are used in Europe for ferreting - they aid in rabbit control and hunting by chasing rabbits out of the warrens. Ferreting is illegal here, so ferrets serve no utility. But the treatment ferrets receive here is awful. Marshall Farms is the mill who breeds most of the ferrets in the US, followed by a few rivaling but similar farms. They take the babies from their mothers before fully being weaned and have vet technicians descent them and laser spay or neuter them. They ship them in styrofoam boxes, too young to be away from their mothers but so that they're small and cute to encourage impulse buying. If yet ferrets don't get sold before growing up they send them back to Marshall's where they are euthanized. Then they recommend you feed their "premium diet", even offering a year long "warranty" if you can prove you only fed their food, which is loaded with corn they can't process and their treats with sugar that is linked to the development of insulinoma. Meanwhile, because they were fixed at two weeks of age, they never grow as big as they should and many, probably about half, develop insulinoma. When doing ferret rescue I can safely say that I'm not sure I ever saw one just die of old age. Meanwhile, in Europe when they are still used in sport, ferrets are kept outside (we don't have the proper weather for that, the heat will kill them) which gives them a proper seasonal cycle - some believe light cycles also affect the occurrence of adrenal disease in ferrets. They tend to be few holistic diets, they're fixed once they reach sexual maturity, and they're not descented. This leads to big, healthy, active and long-lived ferrets. They come from private breeders and not mills. They also don't intentionally breed "panda" or "blaze" ferrets, because, although pretty and cute, the reason they have those markings is from a genetic abnormality called waardenburg's syndrome, which causes white markings on the head, deafness, and difference in eye spacing. Here everyone wants the panda/blaze because "omg they're soooo cute". Across Europe breeding for health and not aesthetics is encouraged or enforced. In the rodent community, in several countries certain genes are scorned upon because of ethical concerns. Tailless genes in rats, and a gene for "eyeless" hamsters (yes, you read that right. But people actually intentionally breed them.)

 

[AZTorts]

AZTorts, feral cats add to a lot of overpopulation, at least in my area. I know a lady who goes to my vet that traps them and brings them to be spayed and neutered (she pays for it out of her own pocket) and releases them back into their wild colonies (for better or for worse). There are a few groups who do similar things. It's amazing how prolific of breeders cats are. I've had both purebred dogs and mutts, but all of my cats were adopted or found.


Leigti, I think as a culture Americans tend to be a bit vain/materialistic. In Europe, animal welfare is much more of a concern, and standard pet practices tend to be better. I'm not surprised that GSDs from Europe are better. Here's an example. Ferrets are used in Europe for ferreting - they aid in rabbit control and hunting by chasing rabbits out of the warrens. Ferreting is illegal here, so ferrets serve no utility. But the treatment ferrets receive here is awful. Marshall Farms is the mill who breeds most of the ferrets in the US, followed by a few rivaling but similar farms. They take the babies from their mothers before fully being weaned and have vet technicians descent them and laser spay or neuter them. They ship them in styrofoam boxes, too young to be away from their mothers but so that they're small and cute to encourage impulse buying. If yet ferrets don't get sold before growing up they send them back to Marshall's where they are euthanized. Then they recommend you feed their "premium diet", even offering a year long "warranty" if you can prove you only fed their food, which is loaded with corn they can't process and their treats with sugar that is linked to the development of insulinoma. Meanwhile, because they were fixed at two weeks of age, they never grow as big as they should and many, probably about half, develop insulinoma. When doing ferret rescue I can safely say that I'm not sure I ever saw one just die of old age. Meanwhile, in Europe when they are still used in sport, ferrets are kept outside (we don't have the proper weather for that, the heat will kill them) which gives them a proper seasonal cycle - some believe light cycles also affect the occurrence of adrenal disease in ferrets. They tend to be few holistic diets, they're fixed once they reach sexual maturity, and they're not descented. This leads to big, healthy, active and long-lived ferrets. They come from private breeders and not mills. They also don't intentionally breed "panda" or "blaze" ferrets, because, although pretty and cute, the reason they have those markings is from a genetic abnormality called waardenburg's syndrome, which causes white markings on the head, deafness, and difference in eye spacing. Here everyone wants the panda/blaze because "omg they're soooo cute". Across Europe breeding for health and not aesthetics is encouraged or enforced. In the rodent community, in several countries certain genes are scorned upon because of ethical concerns. Tailless genes in rats, and a gene for "eyeless" hamsters (yes, you read that right. But people actually intentionally breed them.)

My brother and his wife trapped feral cats, took them to the vet for spay and neuter then took them back home for release at their own expense too. They have about 5 inside cats some of which were feral babies that were born under their boat cover. Not only will the trapping and release prevent those cats from breeding but it's also supposed to help prevent new feral cats from moving into the neighborhood. Supposedly the fixed ones will keep them out but I suspect word travels from one cat to another letting them know what will happen to them if they go there. LOL

 

[leigti]

My town does the catch spay and release program and I think it's great. At least a prevents a lot of kittens from being born. I was told they notch one ear so that they can tell just by looking if they have caught that cat before. Unfortunately some idiots are notching the feral cats ears's to try to fool the people. Some people just have no clue. Humans are so dumb sometimes Tony face